Complete Mage - Is it out yet?

[Felon]

In regards to abilities with unlimited usage, has anyone else noticed that the eldritch disciple can convert his eldritch blast into a healing ray? Unlimited healing on tap, at range no less.

Kiss those wands of cure light wounds goodbye. Mucho healing during battles, and fill up completely after every battle, all at no cost.

 

[Mouseferatu]

In regards to abilities with unlimited usage, has anyone else noticed that the eldritch disciple can convert his eldritch blast into a healing ray? Unlimited healing on tap, at range no less.

Not unlimited, since you have to spend a turn undead use each time you wish to use one of the "gifts." But still quite potent, I'll grant you.

 

[Knight Otu]

No, I'm not missing it. I am saying it's not as balancing as everyone says it is.

You know, we have the technology to test this theory in the Play by Post forums. Find two players to play a fifth-level druid each, one with Call Lightning memorized, and the other using Stormbolt. Find a DM who is willing to whip up a few different scenarios, and willing to DM the druids seperately at the same time through these scenarios. Look who fares better.

 

[Felon]

In regards to the unrelenting bickering about D&D and fantasy lit, I think it's pretty clear the game has moved steadily away from its inspirations (Twowolves has provided some good examples). As to the arguement that the game never perfectly modeled its inspirations to begin with, that's true, but it was clear that's what they were going for back then. Gygax et al were doing the best that they could; the practices of game design were still in a very early state. Today, there are folks who could teach a graduate studies class on the subject, but the issue now is that folks have stopped caring about emulating anything. D&D is its own little homonculus, the result of a couple decades of inbreeding.

That's why games like Iron Heroes, Grim Tales, Midnight, Conan, and so many other games are around.

 

[Amazing Triangle]

May I, this argument seems to be about whether you want reserve feats in 4th edition. Because if this were an argument about whether or not to use reserve feats, it seems silly. All books beyond Core (PHB) are optional. So if you don't like it don't use it. Now if it is power balance you are worried about don't use the book. If reserve feats become standard in 4e, don't play, change games, or keep playing 3.5e.

As for the direction that the wizard is going in it is like the fighter. Do you want fighter feats to have a daily limit? So the fighter has to manage how many times a day he can use power attack? The reserve feat Fiery Blast has a 2nd level spell requirement. Sure at 6th level the 4d6 vs 3d6 example looks nice and pretty but you made a slight error. At 6th level you are treated as 7th level for spell effects (fire) due to the feat, so it is really 2 4d6 rays vs 3d6 at will. Sure the at will looks great but 3d6 is on average 11 hp a round. A greatsword wielding fighter who can attack 2 times every round at 7th level does with a (16 str) (average) 10/attack or 20. Should the fighter be limited to a certain number of attacks per day?

But I don't want an answer. For this is not the place for it. If you want to argue about the validity of the book or the direction of D&D start a new thread. This was for questions pertaining to the book and the elements included in it not to argue how your personal disapproval of the optional material.

 

[Pielorinho]

Moderator's Notes:

This thread has a fair amount of bickering in it that's gotten pretty heated, personal, and snippy. Do folks think it's worth leaving the thread open?

If so, lemme know, and please pay extra-special attention to keeping discussions polite and respectful; consider the thread to be on double-secret probation .

If not, also lemme know, but follow up on that by not participating in it.

Thanks!
Daniel

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

This thread has a fair amount of bickering in it that's gotten pretty heated, personal, and snippy. Do folks think it's worth leaving the thread open?

Yes, please.

 

[Twowolves]

Incorrect. They cut the duration of fly to prevent the early impact to overland travel. Borne aloft doesn't get around that. You have to begin and end you move on the ground.

First: I wasn't talking about the Borne Aloft feat, as I didn't even know it existed.

Secondly: do you have a quote from the designers to back up that it changed to stop overland travel? Or was it because, like 3.0 Bull's Strength, the party could have it up for almost the duration of a typical adventuring day?

So, I see you are trying these rules in absentia and a priori. The character must begin and end their move on stable ground. Unless the wizard has a precipice somehow unreachable by the fighter, it's not going to make them immune to attack.

And then, you assume the character will not have ranged. Most characters that rely on combat as a resource will have access to ranged weapons.

Assuming a wizard won't use spells to tilt a battle in his favor, and will instead stand toe to toe with a melee machine is somehow unfair in a comparison? And I am not assuming that "the character will not have ranged". I'm saying that a lot of foes a character will face will indeed not have ranged attacks. There are in fact lots that don't have enough intelligence to power a light bulb as well. Not every foe will be able to deal with a caster that can blast away at will, and these are the ones the party will be able to take on many many more times per day with the addition of these feats.

Wizards get scribe scroll for free. And scrolls and wands don't go away if you "tap out" early.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Even though wizards get the feat for free, they still have to pay gold and xp to scribe a scroll, and the scroll goes away when read. Before, you had to lose something (a charge, a scroll, a potion) to get an effect, now you don't.

There are other feats that save you gold. Like item creation feats you were just talking about.

Save gold, but still have a finite cost. Spend money and xp for a limited use item for the cost of a feat. Or get a feat and never pay again for unlimited use.

Then don't memorize magic missile, or have your sorcerer trade it out.

So, when I postulate that these feats give an unlimited ability better than a limited use first level spell, your answer is to get rid of the spell? That's ok?

Reserve feats, and all the other details that you decry as "video-gamey," are no less true to D&D's literary inspirations than are the fire-and-forget system.

Look again. The "D&D is based on fantasy literature" and the "reserve feats make the game more like a video game" are SEPARATE TOPICS. Someone said the game is not literature, and I said it was based on it, and proved it. End of that discussion. If you want to start another point, saying that the feats don't make the game more or less like the source material, that's another topic of discussion. Period.

These feats, IN MY OPINION, make the tabletop game more like a clicky video game. That has nothing to do with how close to Conan or Fafhrd or the Bible the game is now or was in the past. I'm fully aware that I don't have to include reserve feats in my game, and I won't. People say this is the best book WotC has put out in a long time, I disagree and won't waste my money on it, especially since it's full of warlock material that I already won't use.

Finally, I note that not one single supporter of these reserve feats will answer this question: In a game where these feats are available, do you believe they will become "must have" feats, where greater than 2/3 of the people who can take one will?

 

[Mouseferatu]

Finally, I note that not one single supporter of these reserve feats will answer this question: In a game where these feats are available, do you believe they will become "must have" feats, where greater than 2/3 of the people who can take one will?

We've introduced them into two separate campaigns so far, and so far the results are:

A) Fewer than half the people who can take them have taken them.

B) Those who have only have one, as opposed to stocking up on them.

They're nice as fallback options, and they allow the party to go a bit longer before the casters are at the "must sleep now" stage, but playtesting and experience show that they do not dramatically tip the balance of power, nor do they dramatically alter game play other than extending a given "day" of adventuring by a little bit.

 

[Victim]

I've played a druid who could blast all day by using a few spells. While Call Lightning isn't totally unlimited like the reserve feat, one cast can pretty much last an entire battle if you don't mind zapping people for crap damage the whole time. Add in produce flame and summoned animals and the character can go a long way without resting.

Of course, that strategy ended up getting tossed fairly quickly. It's an excellent way to manage the number of spells used each day. It's a rather poor way to manage precious combat actions. And then there's the theory of constraints. Spending per day resources at the slowest rate in the group isn't all that great, since the group will usually stop once certain resources are low even if other characters are full.

Since he lifted the magic system straight from Vance, why would anyone have to show any other examples than Vance himself?

Not really. The DnD style resource management fire and forget magic is only present in a few of the Dying Earth stories. And of course, the actual implementation is radically different - a high level DnD wizard will have ~30+ spells of varying magnitude prep'd at once, while a Dying Earth (part 1) caster will have 4 or 5, usually of extreme magnitude. Of course, it's apparently possible for a normal person to prepare and attempt to cast these spells as well - it's just rather risky AND requires that they somehow access the wizard's stuff.

DnD magic has little in common with the other forms of magic in the series or other works of Vance; some other characters certainly seem to be able to produce seemingly unlimited minor effects.

To me it's the same as making a feat in the Point Blank Shot chain that lets the user have infinate arrows, or feats that let you survive without breathing or eating.

Rings of Sustenance. Bags of Holding. There's already plenty of ways to get around mundane logistical challenges, and these methods aren't exactly anything new to the game. Also, I personally am not so fond of buying and tracking the food, water, and other equipment and supplies for an expedition.