D&D 5E Could a Sorcerer with a 1 Wizard dip fulfill everything unique about a wizard?

[Mort]

I'm not really trying to convince anyone of anything.

I'm trying to get into the rules of the game as they're written. While I appreciate the sentiments about asking the DM, I'm not necessarily looking for that type of discussion.

Let me make a more...practical example.

Say a 15th level wizard found a Ring of Three Wishes and got impatient. He decided he wanted a 9th-level spell now and wished it into existence. The DM decides its fine but monkey paws it to say it can not be recovered in a day.

Lets say the wizard kept the slot but multiclassed into Cleric aiming for healing word, just in case. The wizard has his new spells he can put in his book. He has a 9th-level spell not from either multiclassing nor single class progression. Its an external 9th-level spell.

He should be able, by RAW (though probably not RAI), to learn a 9th-level spell.

Multiclassing did not interfere with his spellcasting feature's ability to prepare spells that he have slots for. Multiclassing, of itself, has no restrictions to what you can know or prepare, it just asks that you pretend you're single-classed into this specific class.

Now, lets say you got an external spell slot not from a wish spell or magic item, but from a different class feature. Lets say you've obtained a mysterious 5th level spell slot as a Sorcerer 7/Wizard 1. Technically, neither classes natively give you this spell slot but you're able to synthesize this slot. Is this not yet another case of an external spell slot being given to a wizard and the wizard being able to now prepare higher level spells than before?

On another note:

A DM that allows a wish from a ring of 3 wishes to give a 9th level slot, even once, isn't "monkey's paw"ing.

He's being absurdly generous.

Wish can't replicate a 9th level spell, much less allow someone to suddenly have a 9th level slot available for use.

 

[Musing Mage]

On another note:

A DM that allows a wish from a ring of 3 wishes to give a 9th level slot, even once, isn't "monkey's paw"ing.

He's being absurdly generous.

Wish can't replicate a 9th level spell, much less allow someone to suddenly have a 9th level slot available for use.

I dunno, as DM I'd totally allow a wish to grant a 9th level slot... which could then only be used to upcast a cantrip!

 

[Flamestrike]

You can prepare any spell as a wizard so long as you have the spell slot, yes?

No you cant. If you're a Multiclassed Wizard, the rules for Multiclassed PCs take precedence.

And those rules expressly limit you to only being able to prepare spells as if you were a single classed wizard of that level.

 

[auburn2]

So, when discussions about Wizards and Sorcerers come up, there's talk about ritual casting, spells known, and the ability to write down spells, right?

Well, what about if a sorcerer takes a 1 level dip into wizard?

Really, the wizard's entire benefits are basically in their spellbook. A spellbook that any character can get at level 1.

Another point, however, is that sorcerers are full casters and dipping into the wizards do not interfere with their spell slot acquisition rate. The only thing that is reduced is sorcerer points and the higher level spell known that you would've gotten.

However, taking this dip at, say, level 7 lets you put all your spells known into scrolls which can then be put into your spellbook. This lets you "forget" the spells on level up without actually forgetting them, they're now wizard spells.

A sorcerer also gets the ability to add spells to their overall list via spellbooks and scrolls external to their character. That way, if a sorcerer feels like they don't have enough, the DM is free to give them more.

I strongly disagree for the following reasons.

1. The power of the wizard is not the book, it is the schools and the spells. Things like Bladesong, portent, hypnotic gaze, sculp spells, instinctive charm, song of defense, benign transportation, grim harvest, undead thralls - these things are the wizards equivalent of sorcery points and not having them means you are not comparable to a true wizard of the same level.

2. Spell list - The wizard has the best spell list of any class. The Sorcerer is a close second, but it is still second.

3. Flexibility - A wizard can change their spells every time they long rest which makes them far more versitile and allows him to change his focus every long rest.. If my sorcerer picked a bunch of fire spells and the party has to descend into hell to fight devils, well they are in a pickle. Wizard could rest and prepare other spells instead and still be very effective. Further even if he never copied a single spell to his spell book, beyond what he gets on level up, he still generally can prepare more spells per dy than a sorcerer knows. This means the advantage on spells is clearly in the wizards favor.

4. My understanding of RAW you would need a 11th-level "dip" or the ritual caster feat to get the ability to cast like D. Instant Summonings as a ritual, less for other spells, but a 1-level dip would only give you 1st level rituals. 1st level rituals are pretty good, no doubt but it is not the same as an actual wizard.

 

[MoonSong]

As stated beforehand taking the ritual caster feat is the way if you want this.

Ritual caster is a very limited way to get ritual casting. If I wanted ritual casting so badly for my sorcerer, I would get three levels of warlock for a better version and more functionality out of the deal. But I wouldn't spend a feat on ritual casting.

 

[auburn2]

Ritual caster is a very limited way to get ritual casting. If I wanted ritual casting so badly for my sorcerer, I would get three levels of warlock for a better version and more functionality out of the deal. But I wouldn't spend a feat on ritual casting.

Three levels of warlock is going to put you further behind than 1 feat I think.

ritual caster can be awesome in a party without a wizard or cleric. All those utility spells like identify, detect magic, lemunds hut, comprehend languages, find familiar.

Find Familiar alone is probably worth the feat.

 

[Maxperson]

Not at all.

My book says that as long as its a wizard spell and you have a spell slot, you can add it to your spellbook.

The book says, "Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table."

On the wizard table you only have level 1 slots, since you are a level 1 wizard.

It wouldn't matter anyway. At 1st level a wizard gets, "At 1st level, you have a spellbook containing six 1st-level wizard spells of your choice." Period. You don't have anything resembling the choice you are indicating. The wizard only gets to add wizard spells of higher than 1st when you can a level, which would be more than a 1 level dip.

And lastly, specific beats general, and the following is from the specific multi-classing rules.

"If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare. You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells. If a lower level spell that you cast."

So again, since a 1st level wizard is only assigned 1st level spell slots, all of those higher level wizard spells you placed in the spellbook are useless. You can only prepare 1st level wizard spells and then pump them higher with the other slots.

 

[MoonSong]

Three levels of warlock is going to put you further behind than 1 feat I think.

ritual caster can be awesome in a party without a wizard or cleric. All those utility spells like identify, detect magic, lemunds hut, comprehend languages, find familiar.

Find Familiar alone is probably worth the feat.

But it is a marginal benefit. I mean, you can get Find familiar with the ritual feat or the initiate feat, but only one of these turns you into a mini-wizard, except worse. There is no point in doing that when you can have a wizard with the metamagic feat instead. Do you want a spellbook? there is no point to not being a wizard then. If you still insist on having sorcerer and rituals, then at least three levels of warlock gives you access to the equivalent of the sorcerer capstone, more spells known, a reliable way to contribute to combat and access to every ritual in the game. At least that way, there is more synergy. (Or you could be a warlock with the metamagic feat) Basically ritual caster is a bad way of getting ritual casting when there are other options that work better.

 

[Dausuul]

But it is a marginal benefit. I mean, you can get Find familiar with the ritual feat or the initiate feat, but only one of these turns you into a mini-wizard, except worse. There is no point in doing that when you can have a wizard with the metamagic feat instead. Do you want a spellbook? there is no point to not being a wizard then. If you still insist on having sorcerer and rituals, then at least three levels of warlock gives you access to the equivalent of the sorcerer capstone, more spells known, a reliable way to contribute to combat and access to every ritual in the game. At least that way, there is more synergy. (Or you could be a warlock with the metamagic feat) Basically ritual caster is a bad way of getting ritual casting when there are other options that work better.

Except for the part where you spend the overwhelming majority of the game three levels behind every other caster! You don't even benefit from multiclassed spell slots--warlock slots don't stack with anything. So when a normal caster would first gain access to 5th-level spells, you'll still be slinging 3rd.

The only way this build makes the slightest bit of sense is if you play it as a "sorlock," converting sorcerer spell slots into metamagic to power out insane eldritch blast damage. That's a powerful and effective build, but it is not remotely like playing a normal sorcerer. If what you wanted was a sorcerer with rituals, this is a terrible way to go about it.

 

[MoonSong]

If what you wanted was a sorcerer with rituals, this is a terrible way to go about it.

The ritual caster feat isn't any better for this. Or well, it depends by what you mean by a sorcerer with rituals. If you want a sorcerer that can cast some spells as rituals, then you are better serviced by a level of bard -just pick four rituals for your spells known-. Now if you mean a sorcerer who keeps a ritual book and can collect rituals... How is that different from a wizard with metamagic? If you want a wizard with metamagic, then be a wizard and pick the metamagic adept feat! It blends well with a wizard, and there aren't a lot of feats wizards want anyway. If you really have to have sorcerer in the character sheet, and more metamagic the three levels of warlock at least give you a solid base -if you are sacrificing stuff for having a knock off wizard with metamagic, then at least get the best you can get and the most bang for your book-. The Ritual caster feat has non-trivial costs for a sorcerer, first, having a tertiary stat at 13 comes at the cost of your main stat, or your CON/DEX, then it is competing with other feats that help sorcerers in the long run (Magic initiate and metamagic adept).