D&D 5E Count of 5e saves from MM and PHB by stat and class

[Hussar]

From the PHB

Strength, measuring physical power
Dexterity, measuring agility
Constitution, measuring endurance
Intelligence, measuring reasoning and memory
Wisdom, measuring perception and insight
Charisma, measuring force of personality

Well, that's true and all but doesn't really answer my question. What sort of effects would be resisted by reasoning and memory? Illusions are resisted by wisdom, so that's out. I'm really having a difficult time trying to think of an effect that would fit here.

I could probably see the better argument for charm effects to be resisted by Cha, but, again, wisdom is the key here and that's another sacred bovine that people will lose their poop over if it's changed.

 

[JesterOC]

What sort of effects would be resisted by reasoning and memory? Illusions are resisted by wisdom, so that's out. I'm really having a difficult time trying to think of an effect that would fit here.

Just going down the list, these seem good.

Animal Friendship
Command
Compulsion
Confusion
All the Dominate Spells (Though I can imagine Dominate spells going to Charisma)

However I like this idea better

Fortitude save(str+con)
Reflex save(dex)
Will save(int+wis+cha)

Just choose the best

 

[mellored]

I think the save system in 5e is an improvement over both 3e and 4e.

IMO: Stats should be added to make a save.

Str + Con + 1/2 your proficency = Fort save
Dex + Wis + 1/2 your proficency = Reflex save (wis to notice, dex to move).
Int + Cha + 1/2 your proficency = Will save (also, concentration saves).
Each class gets's 1 save at full proficiency.

Casters DC's increase to 10+stat+proficency.

 

[Mistwell]

To really do this right you'd want to list every impact of a failed save with the name of the save, then rank that impact on a scale of some sort that roughly most people agree with, then do a number crunch to see how it all plays out.

I suspect we will find the Wis and Con saves rank much higher than the Dex and Str saves.

Because really failing a save and therefore being shoved to the ground is not the same as failing a save and dying. The first is a 1 and the last is a 10 on a scale of 1 to 10. Though perhaps possessing you to kill all the other party members as they kill you back to try and stop you from killing them might be worse than direct death.

 

[FrogReaver]

To really do this right you'd want to list every impact of a failed save with the name of the save, then rank that impact on a scale of some sort that roughly most people agree with, then do a number crunch to see how it all plays out.

I suspect we will find the Wis and Con saves rank much higher than the Dex and Str saves.

Because really failing a save and therefore being shoved to the ground is not the same as failing a save and dying. The first is a 1 and the last is a 10 on a scale of 1 to 10. Though perhaps possessing you to kill all the other party members as they kill you back to try and stop you from killing them might be worse than direct death.

That may not really be worth the work as it will vary wildly in different campaigns IMO. Knowing the numbers is good to spot outliers like Charisma and Int both of which you probably won't see much in any campaign. But the other saving throws frequency's probably will vary too wildly depending on the campaign that even if we know certain saving throws generally have harsher effects we still cannot say nothing of the frequency or magnitude of the effects corresponding to a specific saving throw in a specific campaign.

I am betting we would find str saves as an outlier with very few effects outside prone and restrained but we still couldn't downgrade it right away as it's frequency in any given campaign may be much higher than the other type of saves.

 

[clearstream]

Well, that's true and all but doesn't really answer my question. What sort of effects would be resisted by reasoning and memory? Illusions are resisted by wisdom, so that's out. I'm really having a difficult time trying to think of an effect that would fit here.

I could probably see the better argument for charm effects to be resisted by Cha, but, again, wisdom is the key here and that's another sacred bovine that people will lose their poop over if it's changed.

You were thinking about Wisdom as mental fortitude, whereas in 5e Charisma covers that. I think of high Charisma as including a powerful sense of purpose and identity (force of personality) so it correctly covers charms. I find it very satisfying that Charisma has a role and is no longer a dump stat.

Intelligence "resists" most illusions such as Phantasmal Force (Investigation to decide it's not real). It "resists" things like Symbol (Investigation to spot it). And it resists Feeblemind via the save vs psychic damage. So really, the Int save is virtually useless because half the time it's really an Intelligence (Investigation) ability roll. I find it dissatisfying that Int is now a clear dump stat. Maybe they just wanted to penalise Wizards and Druids? OTOH if you use a lot of illusions then Int will shine.

 

[Hussar]

To really do this right you'd want to list every impact of a failed save with the name of the save, then rank that impact on a scale of some sort that roughly most people agree with, then do a number crunch to see how it all plays out.

I suspect we will find the Wis and Con saves rank much higher than the Dex and Str saves.

Because really failing a save and therefore being shoved to the ground is not the same as failing a save and dying. The first is a 1 and the last is a 10 on a scale of 1 to 10. Though perhaps possessing you to kill all the other party members as they kill you back to try and stop you from killing them might be worse than direct death.

Really this is a good point. Far more work than I want to do, but, your weighting system is probably the best idea. So, a Str Save that resists being Grabbed, for example, is probably a 1. But, a Mind Flayer's Mind Blast - affecting an area 60 feet long (so, likely most of the party usually) that stuns you for up to a full minute (saves each round) is a heck of a lot nastier - probably around a 9 since it doesn't outright kill you like, for example, a medusa's gaze.

It would be interesting to see how the numbers weigh out, but, again, considering you have so few, say, Int saves, I'm thinking they'd still be pretty bottom of the barrel.

 

[Argyle King]

IMO: Stats should be added to make a save.

Str + Con + 1/2 your proficency = Fort save
Dex + Wis + 1/2 your proficency = Reflex save (wis to notice, dex to move).
Int + Cha + 1/2 your proficency = Will save (also, concentration saves).
Each class gets's 1 save at full proficiency.

Casters DC's increase to 10+stat+proficency.

That's less flexible than I'd prefer.

For me personally, the idea of using the abilities rather than the three saves (fort, reflex, and will) was an improvement. It reminds me of how GURPS has ability checks and quick contests. I feel that it allows for a lot more flexibility in how to define the challenges faced in an adventure and how the characters can respond to them.

Though, I do think that requires D&D to define what the abilities mean a little more consistently.


The idea of adding two abilities together isn't what I would want to do, but it is an idea which touches upon a though I've recently had. I think there are times when it makes sense that more than one ability should be involved in a check. I can imagine a scenario in which using the average of a character's dex and wis could be used to test their reflexes in response to something. There are other combinations I can imagine making sense as well.

 

[mellored]

That's less flexible than I'd prefer.

For me personally, the idea of using the abilities rather than the three saves (fort, reflex, and will) was an improvement. It reminds me of how GURPS has ability checks and quick contests. I feel that it allows for a lot more flexibility in how to define the challenges faced in an adventure and how the characters can respond to them.

Though, I do think that requires D&D to define what the abilities mean a little more consistently.


The idea of adding two abilities together isn't what I would want to do, but it is an idea which touches upon a though I've recently had. I think there are times when it makes sense that more than one ability should be involved in a check. I can imagine a scenario in which using the average of a character's dex and wis could be used to test their reflexes in response to something. There are other combinations I can imagine making sense as well.

Flexible attacks against static defenses tends not to work too well. How about...

Fireball, the creature make a dex+con saving throw.
Major illusion, the creature makes a int+ wis saving throw.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I am a bit annoyed that there are so few int saves.
Really some spells should habe been int saves.
Some illusions should require int saves whenever you are passively resisting. Investigation as the active check feels right though.
I would not let you autopass illusions if you touch them. In my opinion an int save should be made to actually be able to penetrate an illusionary wall.
Investigation allows you to find inconsitencies so you can dibelieve it.
Just running through an illusionary wall would not be enough in my game. You can't just bypass illusions by ignoring them.

Phantasmal force is another spell where an int save other than the initial one would be appropriate.
Whenever you are passively
forced to rationalize why you fell from an illusionary bridge another int save would make sense.

I am also annoyed that the tomb of annihilation su monster's psychic crush targets wisdom.

So while I am really ok with good and bad saves and saving throw structure in general, I really believe ghe designers missed some opportunities to utilize that system to its fullest.