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D&D haters???

palleomortis

First Post
I can understand the skeptisism. I have to agree that if a friend just showed up with a monstermanual, or some other books (Book of Vile Darkness), I would be skeptical too. But whenever the namd Dungeons and Dragons is mentioned, it seems less skeptism, and more Fear/Distain. If startles me that people can so blantantly accept or suppose that the game is so incredibly horrid and warping that even watching it played or talking about it will effect you. After all, the people that usually act in such a way are often people I veiw as logical, smart-ish, people.
 

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Piratecat

Sesquipedalian
Wepwawet said:
I suppose you live in the US, right?
It's the only place in the world where that sort of thing would happen! Heheheheh :p
Careful here.

No bashing individual countries, no bashing religions - yes, even fundamentalist ones.

Email with questions or problems.
 

Darkwolf71

First Post
johnsemlak said:
Hmm, I'm not sure I'd go as far as what you're saying. You're right, some D&D material offends a significant group of people. However, that same offensive material is highly valued by many of the core fan base of D&D players. Put simply, occult material/demons/devils or whatever is exactly what a lot of D&D players want. As you said above, WotC has to make a choice between not offending one group and pleasing a large contingent of its fans. Remember, TSR angered a lot of core fans when they took a lot of the objectionable material out in the later 80s.
Ah, but this isn't about what the gamers want. It's a question of the games image to those on the outside.
 

Celebrim

Legend
johnsemlak said:
Hmm, I'm not sure I'd go as far as what you're saying. You're right, some D&D material offends a significant group of people. However, that same offensive material is highly valued by many of the core fan base of D&D players. Put simply, occult material/demons/devils or whatever is exactly what a lot of D&D players want. As you said above, WotC has to make a choice between not offending one group and pleasing a large contingent of its fans. Remember, TSR angered a lot of core fans when they took a lot of the objectionable material out in the later 80s.

I understand that, but more or less I'm saying, 'It's too late now.'

Basically, the occult stuff got pulled into the mythology of D&D for much the same reason that the Tolkien stuff did - it was easy and some people wanted it in there. It's alot easier to write up the Binder class if you borrow all the names and signs from the 'Lesser Key of Solomon'. Alot less invention is needed if you do it that way. I'm just saying that that isn't the only way to go about it.

If you look at the rest of D&D's source material, none of them as heavily borrow on crypto-Judeo-Christian belief as D&D does. Leiber, Moorcock, Lovecraft and Howard and all the rest manage to have a cosmology that is dark and gritty without using stuff directly associated with practicing demonology. Frankly, to a certain extent, I don't think your average D&D player really wants or cares about occult material/demons/and devils. If they did, they'd be playing a more rigorously and centrally occult game like Kult or In Nomine. I think the existing stuff is highly valued because it is what they are used to, and it fills a needed BBEG niche, and not because it is a critical or essential part of the game. I think the gamers would resent anything being taken out of the game due to outside pressure.

D&D in my opinion would be much better off with its own intellectual property not tied closely to any real world religious beliefs. It's most successful IP - things like Dragon Lance or the Forgotten Realms - really has nothing to do with occult stuff. But, it is 'too late for that'. Once you put it in, it's hard to take it out.
 

johnsemlak

First Post
palleomortis said:
I can understand the skeptisism. I have to agree that if a friend just showed up with a monstermanual, or some other books (Book of Vile Darkness), I would be skeptical too. But whenever the namd Dungeons and Dragons is mentioned, it seems less skeptism, and more Fear/Distain. If startles me that people can so blantantly accept or suppose that the game is so incredibly horrid and warping that even watching it played or talking about it will effect you. After all, the people that usually act in such a way are often people I veiw as logical, smart-ish, people.

I wish more people thought like you :)

Advice:

-Try to find out what the parents' objections are. Religious, something else?

-Talk to the parents. What you say depends a lot of what they object to, but it's a safe bet that you want to tell them that your D&D game will not contain any objectionable material.

-Whatever your feelings, respect your friend's parents and don't criticize them either directly or to your friend. You might really regret that later.
 


Celebrim

Legend
In case anyone is wondering, I mean to rant here because this is one of those cultural things that annoys me and its one of the few said cultural things that I can actually talk about here. I am not intending however through this rant to insult anyone. I have rather the opposite intention of pulling anyone down.

palleomortis said:
I can understand the skeptisism. I have to agree that if a friend just showed up with a monstermanual, or some other books (Book of Vile Darkness), I would be skeptical too. But whenever the namd Dungeons and Dragons is mentioned, it seems less skeptism, and more Fear/Distain. If startles me that people can so blantantly accept or suppose that the game is so incredibly horrid and warping that even watching it played or talking about it will effect you. After all, the people that usually act in such a way are often people I veiw as logical, smart-ish, people.

Keep thinking like that. It will serve you well. But allow me to explain a bit more of what is going on.

The other side isn't 'balantly accepting' anything. The first step in understanding is to assume that the other side holds the positions that they do for reasonable and valid reasons. You don't have to agree with those reasons, you don't have to like them, and you can think that they are based on faulty information or understanding, but you have to understand that in that other person's shoes they seem (and may even be) perfectly reasonable.

In my experience, how this all came about is something like this:

Parent A hears about D&D and thinks this could be a really neat thing. So he buys his kid the D&D Basic set and expects to maybe play with his kid, and that the kid will play with the neighbors. He's reading through 'Keep on the Borderlands' when he comes across pasages in it about torture and frescos of nude women frollicing with demons or something of the sort. He thinks to himself, "Hmmm... you know this is a little heavier of material than I expected. I'm not comfortable with some of this.' But, generally being open minded, this doesn't deter the original intention, because after all, it's just snippets of text. Then he orders the 'D&D Coloring Book' for the kid for Christmas through the mail, and things get worse. Now those passages are illustrated, and there is all this dark material and when the kid colors it, it looks pretty freaky. So now he's getting worried about the games subject matter, so he talks to some other parents, and they've heard bad things about this game. Then he picks up the Monster Manual and flips through it and there are naked Succubi and entries for Beelzebub and alot of other stuff he sees having no bearing on 'swords and sorcery' as he understands it and he decides that maybe the people publishing this game really are a bunch of freaky Satanists, and maybe some of those wild rumors he's heard about the game are true after all. Parent A confiscates the kids books and tells the kid 'no more D&D'.

Parent B talks to Parent A. Parent C talks to Parent B. Parent C tells Parent A that kids X,Y, and Z who play the game are using drugs/bad influence, and so forth. Pretty soon it enters into the societies common wisdom that 'D&D is bad'. And if you don't believe it, you can always talk to Parent A, who is a trustyworthy figure, and they'll confirm it.

Maybe that isn't fair to the game, but it didn't come about by accident.

If you'll look back at your original post and the first responce to it, I think you'll see that you and maybe some other are making the same sort of snap judgments without information that annoy you so much.
 

cthulhu_duck

First Post
Wepwawet said:
I suppose you live in the US, right?
It's the only place in the world where that sort of thing would happen! Heheheheh :p

Sadly, that's not true. I've certainly encountered those attitudes growing up and living in New Zealand. Parents warned by concerned friends and colleagues etc.

When I was at University 10 years ago, urban folklore had it that the city of Tauranga, New Zealand had banned roleplaying in public following a larp incident.
 

Jim Hague

First Post
Might I also suggest Michael Stackpole's refutation of the claims of D&D's 'satanic' and 'suicidal' influnces? The Pulling Report, I believe it's called. Show that to the parents.
 

Kaladhan

First Post
I did have a similar problem in my youth. And yes, I live in the province of Quebec (Canada). So it's not totally an american problem.

This happened around 1991 or 1992. I was in high school back then.

My friend's father was some kind of hippie left over from the 60s. As such, he was totally against anything containing violence. So it wasn't the cosmology around DnD that bothered him, but the role-playing of violent act. Even in a good context.

I decided to invite his dad to come game with us, for one session. Knowing in advance that he would object to anything violent, I made the session almost completely intrigue. We really had a blast, until the players arrested the criminal they were after. That was after a six-hour role-playing session.

I wanted to put a fight in the game. One fight. It was out of some honesty, but also because I wanted to portray the violence happening in the game in a good light. Sometime, as a last resort, violence is necessary. The criminal didn't want to be arrested, so he made a stand. He said to the characters: "I will never go again to prison. If you really want me, draw your swords!" A fight began.

After two rounds of fighting, the father stand up and said the game was too violent for him. He didn't want his kid playing a game that will make him violent. He forbade his son to even talk to me.

The somewhat funny thing about this is that is son became a drug addict, a school drop out and a criminal (burglary, I believe). If his son would have been allowed to continue gaming with our gang, we would have been a far better influence on him then the friends he made after us.

About gaming with parents, I have learned that they already have an opinion. Inviting them over will change nothing. They are not there to discover, but to proove their point. Some people prefer being right than being just.
 
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