d20 Super Heroes --- coming in July '06 from WOTC

[jdrakeh]

Source?

Game Trade Magazine

Us lawyers, we like evidence.

Apparently, only one-sided evidence. You're definitely a lawyer

Also...are we talking Spycraft corebook outsold d20 Modern corebook, or entire line vs. entire line?

Probably just the core book, but:

A. I'm uncertain about how exactly Game Trade tallies their sales numbers, other than that they poll retailers.

B. At the time I read the sales figures, I think that the only official supplements for Modern were Urban Arcana and the Menace Manual (which is why I used a the word "outsold" rather than "outsells" in my initial post).

Us lawyers, we like clarity, too.

Again, apparently one-sided. Yep! Definitely a lawyer!

If being first is so critical to market dominance, then I assume "Foundation" continues to dominate M&M.

I should have said, the "first to make a positive market impact" (which Foundation did not). If you're the first to suck - well, you'll likely always suck. Conversely, if you're the first to be phenomenal, you usually remain at the top of the pile.

But seriously...why are we talking like one game is going to somehow drive the other out of business?

I don't think anybody is talking like that - I think we're talking about who will control a market share.

[Note: The lawyer jabs are intended to be friendly - my father is a former criminal defense attorney that handles primarily corporate and civil cases now. ]

 

[JPL]

So you're saying Game Trade Magazine said that the Spycraft 1.0 core rulebook greatly outsold the d20 Modern core rulebook? I would fine that surprising --- not because of the realtive merits of the games, but because what little hard evidence I've seen suggests that the WotC logo alone is usually associated with good sales --- but that's certainly a step up from dicussing what I have personally observed at the local Waldenbooks.

James, although I play d20 Modern and not Spycraft, it's not particularly important to me to know which one sells more, nor is it important to me to "prove" that one game is superior to the other. However, when you make statements about how one game is dominating the market, and will continue to do so, I want to know whether you are blowing smoke or whether you know something I don't. When you just make broad statements like that, without citing your sources, I don't know if it's an informed statement or plain old Internet .

I might still disagree with the argument that being first is critical to "controlling the market share"...I think that just being WotC is a pretty big advantage...but more importantly, I don't think that sales of M&M will affect sales of d20 SH much at all, or vice versa.

Suggesting that I am biased, or only demanding proof from one side, is not fair --- I like to see a civil discussion, and part of that is to separate fact from opinion, and good evidence from rumor and hearsay.

 

[jdrakeh]

So you're saying Game Trade Magazine said that the Spycraft 1.0 core rulebook greatly outsold the d20 Modern core rulebook?

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. At one point in time, Spycraft 1.0 was ranked by GTM as being a 'Top 5' best seller when d20 Modern was not. I don't have my old GTM collection handy anymore, so I can't quote an exact issue but I think that it was from a Summer 2003 issue (but I might be mistaken about that).

I would fine that surprising --- not because of the realtive merits of the games, but because what little hard evidence I've seen suggests that the WotC logo alone is usually associated with good sales

Really? Can you produce a source? Or are you an exception to your own rule?

James, although I play d20 Modern and not Spycraft, it's not particularly important to me to know which one sells more, nor is it important to me to "prove" that one game is superior to the other.

It isn't particularly important to me, either - note that I only have three or four posts in this thread.

However, when you make statements about how one game is dominating the market

As I indicated, I was careful to use past-tense verbiage (something that, despite my mentioning it twice now, a lot of people seem to be overlooking). I did not say "outselling" - I said "outsold".

and will continue to do so

And I never stated this as a certainty, only as a likelihood.

When you just make broad statements like that, without citing your sources, I don't know if it's an informed statement or plain old Internet.

Suggesting that I am biased, or only demanding proof from one side, is not fair[/quote]

So far, I think that Joe and I are the only two people to actually cite sources on either side of the argument - but we're hardly the only two people to make said claims. What got me was that you aren't asking for (or presenting) evidence to support your claims, but are demanding that others do so - and that seems a bit contrary.

I like to see a civil discussion, and part of that is to separate fact from opinion, and good evidence from rumor and hearsay.

True. So, in order for me to ascertain that you're not merely a WotC die-hard, could you cite a source?

[Note: As mentioned before, this is really not a proveable argument either way - Game Trade sales figures and Amazon sales figures simply don't accurately reflect the hobby as a whole. Amazon numbers, in fact, don't reflect it at all - they only reflect Amazon book sale trends. Likewise, Game Trade figures only represent Diamond/Alliance retail store trends. Outside of hard-coded sales figures being released by WotC and GR, there is no hard evidence to prove either side of the debate. It's all very circumstantial.]

 

[JPL]

Well, for two guys who seem to agree that there is no point in arguing this issue, and that we lack the data to have any meaningful debate, we both seem to be putting a good amount of energy into this discussion.

I can only assume some mutual enemy has tricked us into fighting one another, offer my apologies, and propose that we join forces to bring him to justice.

It's the Super Hero Way.

 

[Old Fezziwig]

/tKL steps out of the shadows

You've discovered my plan, JPL. And I would've gotten away with it if it weren't for you lousy kids.

 

[JPL]

/tKL steps out of the shadows

You've discovered my plan, JPL. And I would've gotten away with it if it weren't for you lousy kids.

Ah, Kajamba Lion...if only you would use your powers for GOOD.

 

[Jim Hague]

Obviously, me must now set aside our differences and deal with Kijamba Lion...which is also the Super Hero Way.

 

[Old Fezziwig]

Be careful, now, heroes. I'm sitting less than 60 yards from innumerable live chickens in a slightly less than sanitary butcher shop. One more step, and I set them free on the city of Boston.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Mmmnnn... Chicken....

 

[C. Baize]

Mmmnnn... Chicken....

Ah.
The source of my power.

*projecting chicken salad in the direction of Kajamba Lion*