d20 Super Heroes --- coming in July '06 from WOTC

[Reynard]

d20 Superheroes + d20 Past = League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Gotham by Gaslight.
d20 Superheroes + d20 Future = Legion of Superheroes, Dreadstar, Guardians of the Galaxy.
d20 Superheroes + d20 Apocalypse = Thundarr the Barbarian, Friends of Justice*

You, sir, are awesome.

 

[jdrakeh]

I think you're seriously underestimating the amount of power an official logo has.

I don't - note that Spycraft outsold d20 Modern in droves, not necessarily because it was better, but because it was first. Attempting to cover the same ground as an existing and already wildly popular product is an uphill battle all the way. Mutants & Masterminds owns the d20 supers niche, and edging it out of first place will be near impossible.

 

[Ranger REG]

I don't want them to be more generic. I want them as-is, except where it says "Glock", I think it should just say "Automatic Pistol".

Again, too generic. At least there should be differences in firarms damage by ammunition type and caliber, and possibly range increment by barrel length and rifling.

 

[Ranger REG]

Im sure this is exactly what WOTC is thinking: "Supers would be a nice addition to our line".

Not: "What will the fans of other games think about this?"

You know what would be a nice addition? More of the deleted d20 Future material, particularly on starships creation, modification, and combat. And while you're at it, aeroplane and atmospheric combat rules.

Oh, yeah. Star*Drive.

Not that a BNS fan (like me) would question WotC's business decision if they had done as I suggested above.

 

[JoeGKushner]

I don't - note that Spycraft outsold d20 Modern in droves, not necessarily because it was better, but because it was first. Attempting to cover the same ground as an existing and already wildly popular product is an uphill battle all the way. Mutants & Masterminds owns the d20 supers niche, and edging it out of first place will be near impossible.

You're going to have to call me a doubting Thomas as no one I play with for example, owns Spycraft (I have one friend who bought Farscape and another who bought Stargate, but they've stayed away from Spycraft) but these same people have d20 Modern.

Any actual numbers on this or ? Having a second edition isn't proof of better selling, may be proof of a much smaller print run though.

 

[Jim Hague]

You're going to have to call me a doubting Thomas as no one I play with for example, owns Spycraft (I have one friend who bought Farscape and another who bought Stargate, but they've stayed away from Spycraft) but these same people have d20 Modern.

Any actual numbers on this or ? Having a second edition isn't proof of better selling, may be proof of a much smaller print run though.

Anecdotal evidence, as has been noted, isn't really much evidence at all.

I can counter your example with my own - that D20 Modern's sat on the shelf of every FLGS and bookstore in town collecting dust, and those same stores couldn't keep Spycraft 2.0 (or MnM 2e, for that matter) in stock, they sold out so fast.

Unfortunately, WotC's always played their sales numbers close to the chest, so while Chris or Nikki might be able to give us some general figures, there's nothing to compare them to...unless you count those magazine surveys, which everyone pretty much agrees are whacked.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Well, while Amazon isn't the totals or anything, he's how they ranked 'em in book ranking.


509,843 1st ed Spycraft

53,045 in books 2nd ed spyrcraft

37,252 d20 modern

Be interesting if we could see something like Buy.com, Wallmart, and other online sources.

 

[JPL]

I don't - note that Spycraft outsold d20 Modern in droves.

Source?

Us lawyers, we like evidence.

Also...are we talking Spycraft corebook outsold d20 Modern corebook, or entire line vs. entire line?

Us lawyers, we like clarity, too.

If being first is so critical to market dominance, then I assume "Foundation" continues to dominate M&M.

But seriously...why are we talking like one game is going to somehow drive the other out of business? d20 Superheroes is not going to kill M&M and take its stuff, nor vice-versa. At most, they will be tricked into fighting each other, realize their mistake, and team up against the bad guy, and part as allies.

 

[jdrakeh]

Well, while Amazon isn't the totals or anything, he's how they ranked 'em in book ranking.


509,843 1st ed Spycraft

53,045 in books 2nd ed spyrcraft

37,252 d20 modern

Be interesting if we could see something like Buy.com, Wallmart, and other online sources.

And, of course, these rating aren't static - they're recalculated every quarter, if memory serves correctly (i.e., while these figures are likely spot on for the current point in time, they're no way representative of the same products two or three years ago). And, of course, there's also the fact that Amzon sales usually don't reflect the purchasing trends of consumers as a whole (compare their best sellers list with the NY Times best sellers list several times over the course fo the year, and you'll se what I mean).

Ultimately, this is an argument that nobody will 'win' - we can all trade anecdotal and otherwise unverifiable evidence (like sales figures from Game Treade and/or Amazon) until we're blue in the face but, in the end, none of us will prove anything.

[Edit: Incidentally, I have no doubt that d20 Modern currently sells more copies than Spycraft 1e (as the latter is out of print) and Spycraft 2e (as it's been on shelves for about a month now), but I also recall seeing some sales figures in Game Trade that indicate this wasn't always the case. Again, though... that's not definitive proof of anything.]

 

[JoeGKushner]

But seriously...why are we talking like one game is going to somehow drive the other out of business? d20 Superheroes is not going to kill M&M and take its stuff, nor vice-versa. At most, they will be tricked into fighting each other, realize their mistake, and team up against the bad guy, and part as allies.

I just want to note that I'm not talking about anything driving anything else out of business. I'm just saying based on brand and official title alone, d20 Supers could eclipse M&M in terms of sales if the print run follows the traditional WoTC runs. Heck, I think that it could outsell M&M and still be less played than M&M or Hero for that matter. And even if it does outsell M&M, that may not make it a good seller for WoTC.