Daggerheart General Thread [+]

[Ruin Explorer]

So, my group and I have run several one-shots, and now started our first long-form campaign. I've gone through the rulebook a couple times now and am slowly but surely picking up all the different bits and bobs.

One thing that I didn't notice much the first few goes through was loadout, vault, and recall cost (since at the lowest levels, the don't come up). I finally noticed them looking over my School of Knowledge Wizard and extrapolating them over the levels.

Overall, I like the notion. One of the real issues with games having spells/'powers' (atomic blocks of rules text opening up new action options) is having a huge list of them can slow down what-to-do decision making, especially for newer players. Keeping the list of active options smaller (with a high-cost option to switch them out if needed) has clear and obvious benefits to a game (provided it is built with that assumption in mind). I did notice some things and some implications.

Firstly, I now realize that the School of Knowledge bonus ability (and option everyone has at level-up, once per tier) of getting an extra domain card is slightly less valuable than I thought, since you can have all the domain cards you want, but still will only have up to 5 readily available. I'm not a power-gamer, and I think the game works best with limitations, so I'm not upset. It does mean some more careful planning and some things being less valuable than I assumed. It will be interesting.

More notably, I realized that there were no level-up options, class features, spells, species, communities, etc. that modified your loadout limit. Given that you can get extra stress, hope, hp, domain cards, armor slots, damage thresholds, and even proficiency, it seems notable that this is left out as a number to tweak with various options. Has anyone else noticed this? Do you think it was intentional, and what the reasoning is ('we really thought limiting in-the-moment options to be super-important' being the most straight-forward)?

I noticed this and am sure it's intentional. There's a common and well-evidenced theory of game design that basically people can only deal with 5 to 9 options (or thereabouts) at any given time if you want them to make quick and intentional choices they feel good about. This was why 4E capped out at 9 powers which you then started swapping out. As you have options beyond using abilities, the designers probably feel a cap of five is sensible and there's no particular need to allow people to modify it just because other things can be changed. All games have fixed points in their design and this seems like a reasonable one to me.

Edit: Also it is clearly used in the balance of certain Domains, particularly uh the pink one. The name of which escapes me, but it has a much higher number of long rest recharge (and similar) powers , and I have no doubt that the costs, including recall costs are set up on the basis of 5 cards max in hand. If you could increase that number that would potentially be much stronger for that Domain than many others, because you could potentially draft in more daily use cards without having to pay recall costs, which might be the equivalent of quite a significant amount of resources.

 

[Reynard]

I noticed this and am sure it's intentional. There's a common and well-evidenced theory of game design that basically people can only deal with 5 to 9 options (or thereabouts) at any given time if you want them to make quick and intentional choices they feel good about. This was why 4E capped out at 9 powers which you then started swapping out. As you have options beyond using abilities, the designers probably feel a cap of five is sensible and there's no particular need to allow people to modify it just because other things can be changed. All games have fixed points in their design and this seems like a reasonable one to me.

And it is 5 in your hand of domain cards, then a few more for actual class, subclass, species, etc, so the 9-ish range holds.

 

[Neonchameleon]

More notably, I realized that there were no level-up options, class features, spells, species, communities, etc. that modified your loadout limit. Given that you can get extra stress, hope, hp, domain cards, armor slots, damage thresholds, and even proficiency, it seems notable that this is left out as a number to tweak with various options. Has anyone else noticed this? Do you think it was intentional, and what the reasoning is ('we really thought limiting in-the-moment options to be super-important' being the most straight-forward)?

This is not actually quite true. If you look at I think Vitality (Blade 5 anyway) you have a domain card that has its effect then goes into your Vault permanently. It doesn't technically expand your loadout - but does have its effect without being in your loadout. And one thing that makes subclass specialisation and mastery cards so good is they don't count against your loadout.

There are also cards that play with the relationship with your loadout and vault. Counterspell, instead of being a 1/short rest ability, goes into your vault when used meaning you can fish it back out on your turn for 2 stress. And that's a general thing; 1/rest abilities aren't so expensive when you can replace them in your loadout with a vaulted card for 0 or 1 stress

I think they didn't want to risk people who don't enjoy this sort of calculation falling too far behind or to risk analysis paralysis. So having five "front facing" cards you like should always be competitive. But vault manipulation is a definite skill.

I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually create a mastery that gives you an extra loadout slot but I doubt it will be before Tier 4 as characters don't normally start using their vault until tier 3

 

[Willie the Duck]

This is not actually quite true. If you look at I think Vitality (Blade 5 anyway) you have a domain card that has its effect then goes into your Vault permanently. It doesn't technically expand your loadout - but does have its effect without being in your loadout. And one thing that makes subclass specialisation and mastery cards so good is they don't count against your loadout.

Okay. I was perhaps unclear. There are no options which increase your overall loadout limit, like you can pay to up your max Stress or Proficiency score. There are powers (Vitality is one, the level 10 Grace ability Notorious is another) that evade the loadout limit, either by granting their powers while not in your loadout (vitality), or explicitly saying they are excluded from the count (notorious). The 'actual class, subclass, species, etc.' abilities Reynard mention also being in that mix.

Vitality is a pretty straightforward one. It's pretty much just getting some static boosts to some numeric scores and then discardingpermanently placing the card in vault. It's kinda like just getting to use one resource (domain card acquired) as other resources (permanent upgrade to HP, stress, and damage potentials). Most importantly, it doesn't add things-to-do options to a character decision tree.

Notorious is stranger. One, it just plain states that it doesn't count towards the character's loadout limit. Usually, I would expect the game to do some more fanciful workaround, rather than just pull a 'nuh-uh' on the base rules (maybe giving the character a new non-domain ability card and then being permanently vaulted like vitality). Second, it actually is a new thing a character can/has to actively choose to do (mark a stress to get a bonus under specific circumstances). Granted, it is a highly specific situation, and just offering an option to spend a resource for a bonus to an action you can already attempt. Still, it violates the notion we're suggesting as the reason for the otherwise hard-ish limit. I get the reason (few would take this if you had to have it in-loadout in-circumstance), but I'm surprised that they went this way (this once, and only once), rather than make the power lower-level or stronger or otherwise tweak away the need.

There are also cards that play with the relationship with your loadout and vault. Counterspell, instead of being a 1/short rest ability, goes into your vault when used meaning you can fish it back out on your turn for 2 stress. And that's a general thing; 1/rest abilities aren't so expensive when you can replace them in your loadout with a vaulted card for 0 or 1 stress

There are, and it is clear they have fun with the mechanic. Each domain also has a "{domain}-touched" power at level 7 that provides a boost of some kind so long as 4 of your powers in your loadout (including this one) are from the domain. That's an interesting notion, as I'm sure some classes/builds/character concepts can very easily lean super-hard into one of their two domains and some of them would find it very hard to do. I'm wondering if they thought of that, and if the abilities granted by said powers are weighted to match.

I think they didn't want to risk people who don't enjoy this sort of calculation falling too far behind or to risk analysis paralysis. So having five "front facing" cards you like should always be competitive. But vault manipulation is a definite skill.

Yeah, I think we're all in agreement that it seems like the primary motivation. I do find it interesting that you can't buy up the option for another slot like you can with, say, proficiency. If it were opt-in only (and expensive), it would still allow people with analysis paralysis to avoid it without feeling left out. That's why I wonder if there's another factor (such as the fixed point in design to establish balance, as Ruin Explorer discusses).

I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually create a mastery that gives you an extra loadout slot but I doubt it will be before Tier 4 as characters don't normally start using their vault until tier 3

I guess I wouldn't be surprised either way.

 

[Seramus]

Firstly, I now realize that the School of Knowledge bonus ability (and option everyone has at level-up, once per tier) of getting an extra domain card is slightly less valuable than I thought, since you can have all the domain cards you want, but still will only have up to 5 readily available. I'm not a power-gamer, and I think the game works best with limitations, so I'm not upset. It does mean some more careful planning and some things being less valuable than I assumed. It will be interesting.

I do think School of Knowledge specifically should be able to break the 5 domain card limit. It would be very cool, and the wording is ambiguous enough that it could be ruled that way since subclass abilities are specifically called out as being exceptions (yes, they are domain cards and thus not an exception, but it would be a kind interpretation to count them as an exception).

 

[Willie the Duck]

I do think School of Knowledge specifically should be able to break the 5 domain card limit. It would be very cool, and the wording is ambiguous enough that it could be ruled that way since subclass abilities are specifically called out as being exceptions (yes, they are domain cards and thus not an exception, but it would be a kind interpretation to count them as an exception).

I don't think it is ambiguous RAW, and that any ruling such would have to be a deliberate house ruling. I do agree that the Rule and perceived intent might not align. School of knowledge does seem to revolve around 1) getting more opportunities to leverage experiences, making them something of a skill-monkey class, and 2) having more spell tricks up ones sleave. The loadout limit seems like a hitch in the later rather significantly. Not having the expectation of having a lot of combat domain cards prepared means you still can have quite a few general tricks up your sleave, but it'd be nice if you actually had more tricks to leverage than the battle wizard (and/or everyone in general).

It does seem thematically appropriate. I think any class with the Codex domain is already advertising itself as a class to do an end-run around this constraint and you'd better be ready for more options when you play one. And neither the Codex domain, the Wizard class, nor the School of Knowledge read to me as in any way overpowered. The Specialization feature in particular seems very underwhelming (an extra domain card and 1/rest -1 stress cost to swapping spells from your vault for the same cost as anyone can get an extra domain card and an extra stress point overall). I don't regret the choice at all, and it's rather nice to have a wizard class that emphasizes the 'task mage' over 'combat god' motif, but it does seem that some other classes play into their roles a bit better.

 

[Seramus]

I don't think it is ambiguous RAW, and that any ruling such would have to be a deliberate house ruling.

You would think so! But almost every Tadpole Thursday someone on the Daggerheart reddit asks if the School of Knowledge bonus cards or the Level Up bonus cards count against the 5 Domain Card limit.

Of course, the real strength of Accomplished and Brilliant is that you are getting an extra high level card, where you would normally only get a single card of that level. Though it runs into the same oddity as the Level Up option where waiting to take it gives you access to a higher level card than if you took it earlier, unless your GM is cool with retraining (and I am).

 

[Vael]

School of Knowledge has better access to their Vault anyway, as they get the reduced Recall Cost feature. I'm fine with 5 Domain Cards in Loadout being a "Hard" limit. I don't mind having cards that can sidestep that slightly, like Notorious, but I like keeping options manageable. Although I have yet to get to levels where it even matters, our campaign is still level 2, and I've ran another Level 1 one-shot. So we'll see.

 

[Reynard]

School of Knowledge has better access to their Vault anyway, as they get the reduced Recall Cost feature. I'm fine with 5 Domain Cards in Loadout being a "Hard" limit. I don't mind having cards that can sidestep that slightly, like Notorious, but I like keeping options manageable. Although I have yet to get to levels where it even matters, our campaign is still level 2, and I've ran another Level 1 one-shot. So we'll see.

This is one of those times that I am.inclined to trust the design. This game had a lot of testing. I bet 5 is the limit for a reason.

 

[zakael19]

I’m looking forward to seeing the Vault / recall stuff in play. Looks like there’s some interesting build potential there with 0 / 1 recall cards sitting in your vault & Per Rest abilities in your hand to swap around.