Debunking the myth there are no "heroes" in "A Song of Ice & Fire"

[Storminator]

I can agree with your assessment but I figure that his story is a long way from over. For whatever the reason he is a very changed character at the end of the third book. There is a path going somewhere here, lets just see where he leads.

I think Jaime's change is going to be a major part of the series in the books ahead, but then again, he may die in the first chapter.

But if you had to render a judgement right now, I think its pretty clear Jaime gets the big thumbs down. Anything else is speculation (which I am wholy willing to indulge in...).

PS

 

[Tiefling]

I have a question for you guys. Last night, I was reading the chapter in which Catelyn interrogates Jaime. Jaime mentioned that he was "loved by one for a kindness [he] never performed, and reviled by many for [his] finest act." I know that his "finest act" was the murder of Aerys, but I can't recall what his "kindness" was. Can you refresh my memory?

-Ryan

I remember wondering about that for a long time. Don't know the answer though.

Just a quick response on this, since it was addressed to me.

I believe you are incorrect. You are describing cultural relativism, not moral relativism. Moral relativism is on an individual level, not a cultural one. If one views the world through a moral relativists eyes, nobody can be "blamed" for doing evil, because the reason all people do evil is because of their individual perspective of the universe - that in their eyes they were not doing evil because of their family upbringing, the groups they run with, their mental disability, their socio-economic status, etc...In that sense it becomes a personal belief that codes of behavior are not relevant, because they vary for every individual (and not just every culture).

You're partly right, I think. What I described is indeed cultural relativism, but, AFAIK, moral relativism includes cultural relativism. It also includes the other elements you mentioned: socio-economic status, upbringing, mental conditions, etc. But I still don't think it's a statement of the irrelevance of behavior codes (I flatter myself that I am an extremely principled person, and I hope you'll believe me when I say that my opinions on moral relativism/absolutism don't make me forget that and start killing anyone who looks at me the wrong way). Rather a person might consider a particular act to be wrong, but if he subscribes to moral relativism he wouldn't say that the person commiting the act is evil. That doesn't mean that he would not discourage the person from doing it. To put it in an almost-but-not-quite-right analogy, "Love the sinner, hate the sin."

In this sense you could excuse Jamie for casually killing a kid for seeing him sleep with his sister, because he was brought up that way, or because he has a mental disease, or because his society accepts or encourages that behaviour, or because wealthy people like him are accepted as having personality quirks, or whatever excuse you want to come up with. I just don't think when it comes down to it that people will excuse that kind of behavior if it becomes personal. If it was YOUR kid Jamie killed, you would not seek an excuse for his behavior, but just judge it evil and end the analysis there.

It's possible. I can't reasonably predict my actions in such a stressful situation. I can only hope that I would keep my cool enough to not reach such a conclusion. Besides, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. People say and do a lot of stupid things when they're under great stress. It doesn't mean that what they say is right.

Incidentally, I wouldn't simply "excuse" Jaime for killing a kid. True, I wouldn't judge him evil and call for an execution, but I would want to provide him with mental help in order to rehabilitate him and make him a functioning member of society.

I realize I sound exceedingly idealistic. Well, I am. Sorry.

 

[Dagger75]

My stab at this - Spoilers, watch out

I have been reading every thread on these books and plan on re-reading the series soon.

First I think we are seeing good people turn bad abd bad people turning good.

Jon Snow- IMHO one of the Heroes of the books. Sure he breaks the rules now and then but who hasn't.

Catelyn Stark- I think revenge will consume her and she may go bad. She will have to be stopped by someone.

Jamie Lannister- An Evil person. His lot in life has changed since he no longer the greatest swordsman in Westros. I mean what if a bully, used to getting his way all the time was finally cut down to size like a mere mortal. Now the tables are turned. Jamie now HAS to rely on others. He is lucky Brienne has agrred to travel with him and work with him. Her influence may may not sway him to the side of good.

Dany- I am personally having hard time determining if she will be a just anf fair ruler or just another tyrant with some pet dragons. We know she is ruthless, but she also cares for the people around her. Only time will tell.

Arya Stark- Here is the good person turning evil. Even that mystic that The Brotherhood were talking to said as much.
She is trying to survive in dangerous and ever changing world. Her mother, brother were killed and her sister is forced to live with the enemy. This is bound to change anybody. Arya will train to be an assassin. And I don't know who said it but "One person will rise up from the ashes of the war that will unite the land under a single ruler and Arya will kill that person."

Stannis- I think he trying to do the right thing, but only he sees himself as king. The Red Witch has said he should be king and since in is mind he knows he should be king he is willing to do anything he needs to do to become king.

Tyrion- Is not a nice person, he is only out for himself. He has a personal code of honor which is basically if don't mess with me I won't mess with you. Thats why he has been so nice to Sansa, she showed him kindness.

Well thats list of heroes and villians. Its all my own opinion. There are so many other character I didn't go over but those are the big ones in this discussion. I also added some of my own speculation.

 

[Salthanas]

Greetings all

This is slightly off topic but its been awhile since I read any of Martins boks and was hoping that someone on this board could help me with this particular query. Basically I was trying to recall if their was any sort of religous or moral belief system which played a large part in Martins world and guided the Characters. From what impressions I can remember from my last reading everyone seemed to exist in a sort of moral vacuum. Their was no pretence of a higher purpose which guided them, which seemed odd for a medival/fantasy setting, it just all boiled down to a pursuit of power.

yours Salthanas

 

[WizarDru]

This is slightly off topic but its been awhile since I read any of Martins boks and was hoping that someone on this board could help me with this particular query. Basically I was trying to recall if their was any sort of religous or moral belief system which played a large part in Martins world and guided the Characters. From what impressions I can remember from my last reading everyone seemed to exist in a sort of moral vacuum. Their was no pretence of a higher purpose which guided them, which seemed odd for a medival/fantasy setting, it just all boiled down to a pursuit of power.

There are better informed people who can (and will) answer this question in depth, but there are quite a few religious systems in place in SoIaF, both in Westeros and elsewhere. We aren't given huge amounts of detail about them, but they appear quite a bit throughout the series, from the Stark's grove to the Red Priest, for example. However, there is no centralized church power in the series, and as such, religion does not have the same grip it had over parts of medieval Europe. That said, in many cases, historical mediveal European leaders often only paid token obeisance to the church, anyhow, so it all adds up.

 

[King_Stannis]

Re: My stab at this - Spoilers, watch out

Stannis- I think he trying to do the right thing, but only he sees himself as king. The Red Witch has said he should be king and since in is mind he knows he should be king he is willing to do anything he needs to do to become king.

Tyrion- Is not a nice person, he is only out for himself. He has a personal code of honor which is basically if don't mess with me I won't mess with you. Thats why he has been so nice to Sansa, she showed him kindness.

Well thats list of heroes and villians. Its all my own opinion. There are so many other character I didn't go over but those are the big ones in this discussion. I also added some of my own speculation.

It's not so much that the Red Witch is telling him he has to be king, he IS the King. As he told Davos, "want" has nothing to do with it. She is giving him the added incentive of being AA reborn, and that he has to fight The Other. But to do that, he needs the Iron Throne (or so he thinks).

I think he listens to and uses Melisandre because everyone else in the realm is playing dirty pool, and she is a powerful tool in the toolbox.


Interesting thoughts on Tyrion. Everyone loves him, including me, but you make a simple and effective case against him. It's so easy to see him as the underdog dwarf trying to do good, and look past all his faults.

 

[RyanL]

Greetings all

This is slightly off topic but its been awhile since I read any of Martins boks and was hoping that someone on this board could help me with this particular query. Basically I was trying to recall if their was any sort of religous or moral belief system which played a large part in Martins world and guided the Characters. From what impressions I can remember from my last reading everyone seemed to exist in a sort of moral vacuum. Their was no pretence of a higher purpose which guided them, which seemed odd for a medival/fantasy setting, it just all boiled down to a pursuit of power.

yours Salthanas

This is actually a great question, and something that I have thought about myself. Religion plays a large role in the books, especially when you consider that magic and religion seem to be intertwined in Martin's world. However, if these religions lay down a moral code, it certainly hasn't shown a great deal in the text. The only moral dogma I can remember from the books are that the gods hate kinslayers, and people who would harm those they they have invited into their home (I'm looking at you, Walder). For the most part, it seems that the gods are just symbols that you pray to when you want something. This seems particularly true of the Seven, though perhaps I am jaded by my dislike of most the characters who worship the Seven.
Most interesting is the Lord of Light. It seems that those who worship him can pretty much justify anything by saying "shadow is product of the light."

-Ryan

 

[Tiefling]

Well the Faith, at least, has a centralized authority based in King's Landing as the High Septon. He seems to have some degree of power, though the lesser septons might not. We don't really know because the only towns other than KL that we've seen up close worship the Old Gods and the Drowned God.

I would argue that the presence of these three religions is what keeps the Faith from becoming as powerful as the Church in medieval Western Europe. The Church was the only game in town as far as religion goes, and therefore was able to grab more power. Perhaps if the North, the South and the Iron Islands were seperate states then each religion might become more powerful, but so long as they have to coexist in the same state that would seem unlikely.

 

[Salthanas]

This is actually a great question, and something that I have thought about myself. Religion plays a large role in the books, especially when you consider that magic and religion seem to be intertwined in Martin's world. However, if these religions lay down a moral code, it certainly hasn't shown a great deal in the text. The only moral dogma I can remember from the books are that the gods hate kinslayers, and people who would harm those they they have invited into their home (I'm looking at you, Walder). For the most part, it seems that the gods are just symbols that you pray to when you want something. This seems particularly true of the Seven, though perhaps I am jaded by my dislike of most the characters who worship the Seven.
Most interesting is the Lord of Light. It seems that those who worship him can pretty much justify anything by saying "shadow is product of the light."

-Ryan

When you consider that people in medival times were extremely religious on the whole and that religion was not only used to control and intimidate the masses but also to make legitimate the ruling classes right to rule to a certain extent it did strike me as odd that little moral dogma exists at all in Martins world. The church was after all an extremely powerful political animal in those times largely because of this, strong moral dogma was needed to prevent anarchy. In a world as violent as Martins one would think that there would be some mechanism at least which performed the functions of the above even if it was not neccessarily religious. However as its been a long time since I read the books maybe there is and I've forgotten it.



yours Salthanas

 

[Mistwell]

I wrote, or found this (I can no longer recall) about the Drowned God, worshipped by most people on the Iron Islands, but few if any off the islands.

The Drowned God

The Drowned God is the principal god worshipped on the Iron Islands. The Drowned God brought flame from the sea, and sailed the world with fire and sword. When an Ironman drowns, it's said that the Drowned God needed a strong oarsman, and the refrain "What's dead may never die" is used. The Drowned God made the Ironborn to reave and rape, to carve out kingdoms and to make their names known in fire and blood and song. It is said, "the Drowned God makes men, but it's men who make crowns".

Priests of the Drowned God wear seawater robes, mottled green and grey and blue. They wear their hair and bears long and braid ropes of dried seaweed through them. One of the Ironborn might become a priest of the Drowned God after an experience such as nearly drowning.

Priests carry a waterskin filled with seawater. The process of a blessing is that the priest has a person kneel. Using his skin of seawater, he pours a stream of it upon the person's head. As he does this he intones, "Let <person> your servant be born again from the sea, as you were. Bless him with salt, bless him with stone, bless him with steel." Then the kneeling person responds, "What is dead may never die." Finally, the priest closes with, "What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger". Priests of the Drowned God bless new ships, speaking invocations and pouring seawater over prows.

Priests of the Drowned God often perform the ritual executions involving the drowning of victims in seawater if (for example) someone insults the god.