D&D (2024) December 1st UA Spell changes

[Gorck]

I will take some of the healing discussion a bit further, because I honestly don't see healing as broken in 5e. Far from it.

In your analysis you rightly point out that people can get frustrated that healing can only reset a party member back to where they were before. But, let us say you have a situation like a Choldrith or something else. The enemy hits your ally with an attack, deals damage, and poisons them. That was a single action from the enemy.

To heal the poison takes a single action. To heal the damage takes a different single action. So to reset them, which isn't satisfying to many people, takes double the action economy that harming them took. That's... not good. That is actually really bad to trade two of your actions for the enemies single action.

But it actually gets worse. Taking the Choldrith specifically they can deal an average of 21 damage a turn. To heal that would require a 4th level Cure Wounds on average? For a CR 3 enemy? Or, again, multiple actions.

So, a single round from a single enemy has the potential to take up to three turns to reverse. Which leaves them more turns to inflict more damage. So, it doesn't feel like the healer can actually even hit the point of just reseting their allies. Instead it is "I can make us lose slower"

I don't see anywhere in the Choldrith stat block that says they inflict the Poisoned condition. All I see is their dagger doing additional poison damage.

 

[Kobold Stew]

I don't think this has been done yet:

What are the spells that are missing on the spell lists?

Here are the cantrips:

Spoiler

Acid Splash (a)
Blade Ward (a)
Chill Touch (a)
Dancing Lights (a)
Druidcraft (p)
Fire Bolt (a)
Friends (a)
Guidance (d, p)
Light (a, d)
Mage Hand (a)
Mending (a, p)
Message (a, p)
Minor Illusion (a)
Poison Spray (a, p)
Produce Flame (p)
Prestidigitation (a)
Ray of Frost (a)
Resistance (d, p)
Sacred Flame (d)
Shillelagh (p)
Shocking Grasp (a)
Spare the Dying (d, p)
Thaumaturgy (d)
Thorn Whip (p)
True Strike (a)
Vicious Mockery (a)

17 Arcane (7 combat, not counting True Strike)
6 Divine (1 combat)
7 Primal (4 combat)

What's missing? (excluding Ravnica-only spells, etc.)

• OPTIMIZED SPELLS: Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade, Mind Sliver. Each of these is really strong, and may be kept out or (in a later package) nerfed.
• ELEMENTAL SPELLS: Control Flames, Gust, Mold Earth, Shape Water. Don't know why these would be excluded necessarily, but they could be made available to an elemental-themed Sorcerer, perhaps.
• DAMAGING SPELLS: Create Bonfire, Frostbite, Infestation, Lightning Lure, Magic Stone, Sword Burst, Thunder Clap. There's flavour in all of these, but I do not think removing them will be particularly felt. I know people liked the minor terrain control of Create Bonfire. I personally only miss Magic Stone, which gave a ranged partner for Shillelagh.
• OTHERS: Eldritch Blast, Primal Savagery. My guess is eldritch blast is being changed into a core feature for the Warlock, and so won't technically be a spell. Possibly Primal Savagery is being usurped by the Shifter in MotM, but it might also be available only to Barbarians or a fighter subclass.

Almost all of these (excepting Eldritch Blast?) were later additions in any case, in Tahsa or Xanathar.

If I were suggesting changes, I would add Magic Stone (primal) and another divine spell that allows an attack roll (not a save, as Sacred Flame).

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I don't see anywhere in the Choldrith stat block that says they inflict the Poisoned condition. All I see is their dagger doing additional poison damage.

I'd also add, that healing has 100% hit rate, while the attack has not...

... and if the tank is a barbarian, damage is reduced by a factor of 2.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I had this comment months back, because I'd noticed the same issue. That led to this thread: Heal Thyself. The, ah, majority consensus of the forum is that healing can't be good because hit dice exist. I still think that it's ridiculous you can't even rely on a max-level spell to even 1:1 the damage a party member can take, let alone give them a reasonable buffer, with a touch spell that has a single target, but you can read what others have to say, I suppose.

We use the lowest form of non magical healing, which works well for us. In that context, I find magical healing quite lacklustre, especially compared to paladin laying on hands (which in my view should just be free cure wounds/lesser restoration proficiency bonus times per day plus Charisma bonus). I allow an extra die of healing so baseline is 2d8+wisdom instead.

in our all (not any more 1 PC died and was replaced) artificer game we stopped prepping healing for the most part.
Our alchemist cleric keeps healing word and something spirit prepped and has the healer feat...

The healer feat alone is worth 1d6+your level healing 1/short rest, healing word is a quick "Oh need to boost you mid combat" and healing spirit and HD work during short rests.

 

[James Gasik]

I'd also add, that healing has 100% hit rate, while the attack has not...

... and if the tank is a barbarian, damage is reduced by a factor of 2.

I don't think bringing the Barbarian into this is fair though; not every group is going to have one, nor will Rage always be available. Heck, unless you're a Totem Barbarian, there's lots of kinds of damage that isn't halved.*

*whether or not people play other kinds of Barbarians is not something I'm sure of, I've seen one Zealot personally.

As for the hit rate, well, neither does magic missile, but how long does it take for cure wounds to catch up to the damage of one magic missile spell? Upcast to 4th level? And one of those spells has a really good range, as opposed to touch.

 

[Kobold Stew]

What's missing form the spell lists: levels 6-9.

Level 6 spells:
Arcane (20)
Divine (10)
Primal (9)

What's missing:

• Spells from Xanathar and Tasha's: Bones of the earth, Create homunculus, Investitutre of Flame and Ice Stone and Wind, Mental Prison, Primordial Ward, Scatter, Soulcage, Summon Fiend, Tasha's Guise, Tenser's Transformation.
• Drawmij's instant summons has lost the Drawmij name.

Level 7 spells:
Arcane (15)
Divine (7)
Primal (3)

What's missing:
* Spells from Xanathar and Tasha's: Crown of Stars, Dream of the Blue Veil, Power Word Pain, Whirlwind.

Level 8 spells:
Arcane (14)
Divine (4)
Primal (5)

What's missing:
* Spells from Xanathar: Horrid Wilting, Illusory Dragon, Maddening Darkness, Mighty Fortress.

Level 9 spells:
Arcane (12)
Divine (6)
Primal (4)

What's missing:
* Spells from Xanathar and Tasha: Blade of Disaster, Invulnerability, Mass Polymorph, Psychic Scream.

Thoughts.
At all of these levels, the number of spells available is heavily weighted towards Arcanists, but not likely to affect most players in any case. The list is really like a dream board in any case.

Still, a 3:1 ratio (e.g. Arcane to Divine at level 9) seems pretty extreme, and there is no reason for bigger gaps: I'd like to see another two level 7 Primal spells, and another 8th level Divine spell at least.

Based on these lists, they are keeping all the PHB spells, though some are reassigned to different schools. I was half-expecting that all the Conjure creature spells would be removed, and the Summon spells (like Summon fiend), which give a stat block of the creature summoned and not choice from the MM, put in their place. That still might happen, of course.

This could be taken to suggest something about the backwards compatiility of all the spells in Tasha's and Xanathar. There will need to be some rule aboiut which spells belong in which spell list (even "if it was on the list for a class in 2014, it is part of that class's spell list still").

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I don't think bringing the Barbarian into this is fair though; not every group is going to have one, nor will Rage always be available. Heck, unless you're a Totem Barbarian, there's lots of kinds of damage that isn't halved.*

*whether or not people play other kinds of Barbarians is not something I'm sure of, I've seen one Zealot personally.

As for the hit rate, well, neither does magic missile, but how long does it take for cure wounds to catch up to the damage of one magic missile spell? Upcast to 4th level? And one of those spells has a really good range, as opposed to touch.

1 magic missile: 3d4+3 damage, average 10.5

1 cure wounds: 1d8+3, average 7.5

1'd say, upcast to level 2?

I don't say, you are totally off, but healing should not be too good.

What I would do: whenever you receove magical healing, you can spend a hit die per spell level of the healing spell and regain additional healing equal to the amount rolled.

We tried that variant for a while and it nearly made healing too good. So we scaled it down to 1hd of healing per healing spell.

 

[Dayte]

Constantly muttering prayers while holding a rosary is absolutely not suspect. Having a religious friend besides you isn't either. In both these cases we don't mind in real life. The only thing that might give it is if your religious friend is knotted to you by a 10' rope.

It might be we don't mind because in real life we (or at least many of us) are not worried about divine prayers. In a world of magic, it might be more concerning, especially if the person in front of you looks like they might have the means or contacts to have someone capable of casting a cantrip.

Context matters, are you talking to a local farmer looking for directions, or are you talking to a merchant haggling over prices? Is it a low magic setting or does every village have a low-level divine type, remember it is a cantrip?

 

[James Gasik]

1 magic missile: 3d4+3 damage, average 10.5

1 cure wounds: 1d8+3, average 7.5

1'd say, upcast to level 2?

I don't say, you are totally off, but healing should not be too good.

What I would do: whenever you receove magical healing, you can spend a hit die per spell level of the healing spell and regain additional healing equal to the amount rolled.

We tried that variant for a while and it nearly made healing too good. So we scaled it down to 1hd of healing per healing spell.

I was counting upcasting magic missile vs. cure wounds. At level 4, it's 6d4+6 vs. 4d8+3-5.

 

[Stalker0]

In my game I houseruled the Cure Wounds upscale to be (1d8+wis) x spell level, rather than 1d8 * spell level + wis. Fixed it right up to me.