D&D 5E Design Debate: 13th-level PCs vs. 6- to 8-Encounter Adventuring Day

Just finished up the prescribed 6-8 encounters as prescribed by [MENTION=6788736]Flamestrike[/MENTION] I am a Tad disappointed by the power level of an archmage and a shadow dragon.

Ill post up my thoughts later after I can mull things over what I will say is rocket tag is alive and well. Winning iniative makes encounters trivial at this level of PC power and a suprise round can easily result in a tpk. It didn't due to the way the characters were optimized. I will say this though the characters where optimized the players playing them made lots of mistakes some very basic and they still pulled through with plentifully resources left.

Biggest issue with this edition imo monster defense are way to low both AC and saves, I know this must be by design due to 2-3 round combats
 

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Gygax actively encouraged ignoring dice rolls when they produced an unfair result (with the exception of system shock rolls)
I'm very familiar with the Gygax quotes.

He advocates avoiding random determination of content introduction where that would be bad for the game, and gives two examples (DMG pp 9, 110): (i) where players are playing well, be cautious in having them so beset by wandering monsters that they can't make progress towards their planned goal; (ii) where you have designed an interesting bit of the dungeon that is behind a secret door, don't make access to that area utterly dependent on a random check.

He also canvasses substituting a result less than death for death in circumstances where a player has played well and has had his/her PC reduced to zero hp by an unlucky roll (p 110); though this result should still be a "reasonably severe penalty that still takes into account what the monster has done."

He never discusses, let alone endorses, "an extra unplanned encounter here or there, or doubling a monsters HP mid fight to keep it interesting or occasionally fudging rolls for or against the players". And that would be completely at odds with the "skilled play" that he advocates: the whole point of Gygaxian skilled play is to avoid wandering monsters (via speed, silence, etc) and to seek out the planned target (monster and/or treasure) and successfully recover the loot at minimum risk and cost. (See the discussion of this in his PHB pp 107, 109). If the GM introduces unplanned encounters other than via the wandering monster mechanics; or doubles a monster's hit points mid-fight; or fudges rolls; then how are the players expected to reap the benefits of their skill? That would entirely defeat the purpose.
 

I think quoting Gygax is great but the quotes cannot be applied different edtions of the game imo dnd has evolved rapidly since Gygax's inception. More to the point CR math is so wonkey in 5e and care bear death rules combined with its swingy nature means sometimes you need to double HP turn that Nat 1 into a) crit PC's should feel the illusion pdfs struggle and risk of death or well they will stop fearing death and do stupid things expecting to live failing miserably and then blaming you. That and its not fun playing in a game with no illusion of failure or death
 

When all you've got a hammer, everything looks like a nail, eh, Flamestrike?

In other words, no. A linear, encounter-centric attrition-based gameplay model would be a poor fit for my campaign and DMing style/play goals.

Can you explain why the longer rest variant wouldnt work in a campaign where you get 0-3 encounters per day?
 

I'm very familiar with the Gygax quotes.

He advocates avoiding random determination of content introduction where that would be bad for the game
, and gives two examples (DMG pp 9, 110): (i) where players are playing well, be cautious in having them so beset by wandering monsters that they can't make progress towards their planned goal; (ii) where you have designed an interesting bit of the dungeon that is behind a secret door, don't make access to that area utterly dependent on a random check.

Exactly. A random encounter (the introduction of content) inserted into a game where my PCs are having too hard a time of it would be bad for the game.

I dont care if some rule calls for the insertion of a random monster (roll each 10 minutes, % chance). I'll simply roll the dice (to maintain the perception of fear for the players) and ignore the results.

And his guidelines make no such distinction the other way around - in other words its perfectly fine to introduce content in situations where it would be good for the game. Throwing a 'random' monster at the PCs when play has slowed, and theyre having an easy time of it makes perfect sense to me, and I have a feeling Gary would have agreed.

Its certainly a recomendation taken straight from the 5E DMG anyways.

He never discusses, let alone endorses, "an extra unplanned encounter here or there, or doubling a monsters HP mid fight to keep it interesting or occasionally fudging rolls for or against the players". And that would be completely at odds with the "skilled play" that he advocates: the whole point of Gygaxian skilled play is to avoid wandering monsters (via speed, silence, etc) and to seek out the planned target (monster and/or treasure) and successfully recover the loot at minimum risk and cost. (See the discussion of this in his PHB pp 107, 109).

Youre wrong in your interpretation of Gygax here.

Why is it skilled play to overcome monsters that attack at random (truly random monsters) but it is not skilled play to overcome monsters that are triggered due to environment.

My players know that if they rest too much, or go too slow, they more 'random' monsters appear. I do it in such a way that they mostly presume that the dice are falling as they may of course. But thats part of the skill of DMing - managing player perceptions.

But the key thing is they catch on fast how to reduce that risk. Rest less, and push on. Dont stay in the one place too long. Kick in the door and kill the monsters, before they come looking to kill you.

In my view, the 'not totally at the behest of a random percentage chance' wandering monster encourages skilled play more than simply flipping a coin every 10 minutes or so and seeing if the universe spits one out.

Remember - Gygax advocated ignoring a rule or table to keep the game running. The DM is in control - as a benevolent dictator of sorts, seeking to challenge and entertain the players, while dictating the pace of the adventure and the challenges the players face, all while arbiting the rules.

A 'hands off, let the dice fall where they may' approach can be done by a trained monkey or a computer. Gygax advocated for no such thing.

If the GM introduces unplanned encounters other than via the wandering monster mechanics; or doubles a monster's hit points mid-fight; or fudges rolls; then how are the players expected to reap the benefits of their skill? That would entirely defeat the purpose.

They do reap the benefits of their skill. It takes just as much skill to get a feel for a games meta than it does to figure out mathmatical probabilities.

My Job as a DM (and Gygax says nothing that leads me to think he advocated otherwise) is to adjudicate the rules as a hollistic whole, with the intent of the rules to trump the text, and to not be afraid to make rulings and not rules. He tells me (barring one exception) to not slavishly adhere to bad rolls, and to not be afraid to arbitrate and insert content when so doing would be good for the game as a whole.

If you think that player and character skill doesnt get tested in my games, then thats up to you. I assure you that they are tested more in games like mine than in campaigns that are 'let the dice fall where they may' types. (which are less based on skill under pressure and more based on advanced planning and random chance).

I make rulings (and ignore bad rolls) when they are for the good of the game as a whole (to maintain balance, ensure the players are challenged, enforce pacing and make sure players are engaged and rewarded). And just like Gygax advocates, arbitration and rulings are fair game when done for just such a purpose.

I dont throw an extra encounter/ random monster at my PCs just to troll them, or as part of an arbitrary flip of a coin or roll of a dice. I do so with a bigger purpose in mind (balance, challenge, pacing or to simulate the environment) and when its for the good of the game as a whole.
 

Sounds like the 'longer rest' variant is for you. 0-3 encounters per [day/ short rest], and around 6-8 per [week/ long rest] and youre on the money.
I actually suggest *variable* rest frequency.

What works for one scenario might be completely off for another.

It's the insistence to set the rests at a fixed duration that is the real problem.

Not that short rests are one hour instead of five minutes or a day. Changing it from always one hour to always five minutes or always one day doesn't really fix the core problem, even if it does work as a band-aid for a particular scenario.
 


Can you explain why the longer rest variant wouldnt work in a campaign where you get 0-3 encounters per day?

Tell you what. If you can explain to me the difference between a linear adventure and a Jaquays' Mode adventure and the pros and cons of each, and you still don't know the answer to your question, I will then elaborate further on why your suggestion unsuitable for my campaign.

Here is a link that might be useful to you: http://hackslashmaster.blogspot.com/2011/01/on-line-structure-and-flowchart-style.html
 

Can you explain why the longer rest variant wouldnt work in a campaign where you get 0-3 encounters per day?

It might work. You just have to get your players to buy in. Certain groups of players prefer set rules that don't alter to ensure they know the game. If you agreed upon alternate rest rules in different circumstances in advance, I think most players would be ok. It depends on your group and how often it changes.
 

Just finished up the prescribed 6-8 encounters as prescribed by [MENTION=6788736]Flamestrike[/MENTION] I am a Tad disappointed by the power level of an archmage and a shadow dragon.

Ill post up my thoughts later after I can mull things over what I will say is rocket tag is alive and well. Winning iniative makes encounters trivial at this level of PC power and a suprise round can easily result in a tpk. It didn't due to the way the characters were optimized. I will say this though the characters where optimized the players playing them made lots of mistakes some very basic and they still pulled through with plentifully resources left.

Biggest issue with this edition imo monster defense are way to low both AC and saves, I know this must be by design due to 2-3 round combats

I can understand this. My group fought a lich. They killed it quite quickly. It only has 130 hit points or so. That goes extremely fast against a party. It did some damage with AoE spells. I was setting up for a power word kill death hit, but he just couldn't last long enough. I'm going to modify lich hit points next time. I'll add a bonus based on power from its phylactery or whatever semi-appropriate means to raise its hit points. 5E is very much a hit point attrition game. The primary defense is hit points. AC, saves, and every other type of defense can be circumvented by hit points.
 

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