Do you consider 4e D&D "newbie teeball"?

[MerricB]

What parts of 4e D&D do you find complex or deep, and what parts of 4e do you find to be good for new players and DMs? Or do you agree with ByronD, that 4e D&D is a child's game (newbie teeball)?

Given that BryonD's comment is absolutely absurd and deserves scorn: no, it's not a child's game. It's not teeball, whatever that is.

4E is an odd beast that you have to evaluate in two parts: what it means for players, and what it means for DMs. (In truth, you should do this for every RPG, because the game the players are playing is not the game the DM is playing).

For DMs:
D&D 4E is a game that tries to get out of the way of the DM as much as possible whilst still maintaining a mechanical framework for challenges that is (mostly) balanced.

For new DMs, the game maintains the ease of creating balanced encounters that 3e pioneered (for D&D), but takes the massive load of references out of the equation that 3e suffered from.

For Players:
D&D 4E is a game that gives a lot more "hard-coded" options for the players to use.

This is part of the disconnect with 4e for me: it's getting out of the way of the DM to allow the DM to do his job easier, but the power system codifies the options for players a lot more than previous editions did (well, in respect to fighter-types, that is).

A 4E fighter is far more challenging to play than a 3e Fighter at 1st level, IMO (if not least because you have to first grok the Fighter's marking power and how it works). The 4E Ranger is a better beginning class. You need to worry about teamwork more. Groups that master the teamwork of 4e - which isn't really that hard - will do very well indeed.

Cheers!

 

[pawsplay]

I'll go with a different analogy (it may suck -- I thought of it just now).

I feel like 4e is a pocket knife, compared to 3.x's Swiss Army Knife.

No, it doesn't have tweezers, a corkscrew and a magnifying glass. But I don't really need those tools most of the time anyway. I find 4e more streamlined and better at being a knife than 3.x.

If others value versatility more then I'm glad they have a better tool. But for me, right now, I just need a good knife.

That's a nice analogy. Or you could say D&D is a pair of scissors... 3.5 has a bare metal handle but it can cut just about anything, 4e is ergonomic and sharp but right-handed and shouldn't be used on plastic twist-ties. I like anologies.

In any case... 4e is a reasonably complex game. In fact, since one of the things I like least about 3e is tracking temporary modifiers, 4e is actually too complex for my tastes in the area of at-will and encounter powers.

 

[El Mahdi]

...I am not a big 4e fan. It has its strengths and weaknesses, like all systems. But I don't see it as teeball, nor lacking in intelligent conversation.

Exactly!

4E's system as a whole, does not interest me - but there are parts of it that are absolutely top notch, and IMO even revolutionary (or evolutionary).

However, 4E is definitely not a tee-ball or training wheels version of D&D.

I think it provides more support and assistance for newer or less experienced DM's than past editions - but that doesn't mean it doesn't contain all the meat and complexity more experienced DM's want. Again, as a whole, it's mechanically not my thing - but it supports games from very simple to as complex as you want. Saying otherwise is like saying an Aston Martin with a manual transmission is driving with training wheels. It may not be your preferred feel in a sportscar, but even with a manual transmission, it definitely isn't meant for kids.

For examples of just how interesting, varied, and complex, 4E can be, just read the running commentary on Rel's and Piratecat's games. Those guys haven't needed training wheels for a very long time.

I highly doubt they'd use a game that would require them to put the training wheels back on the bike.

 

[jaerdaph]

So, to answer the OP's question... I don't consider it Tee-ball. I consider it Australian Rules Football. Yes, it's football, and it obviously descended from the same Rugby-ish game every other type of football descended from... But, it's certainly not the football I grew up playing, and I find much of it quite odd. I'm sure its fans like it very much, and I hope they have a great time with it.

Well said, sir, well said.

 

[El Mahdi]

For those who don't know:

Tee-Ball


YouTube - Tee Ball 5-12-07

 

[Gog]

I don't play 4E, tried it didn't like it though I would be willing to try again when Dark Sun is out and I wouldn't say that. I do think the "getting started hump" is a little lower than previous versions but that isn't really a bad thing. 3rd edition especially it was easy to really mess your character up if you didn't get started well.

 

[Obryn]

You have left critically important parts of the conversation out.

I don't know if more context would add anything. This is not a new analogy for you.

-O

 

[RangerWickett]

As MerricB just mentioned, 4e is great for making a DM's job easy. Where I have problems are

a) that the fiddliness of tracking short-duration bonuses has been replaced by the fiddliness of tracking short-duration conditions,

b) that character design for PCs is as open and free-form as 3e, and

c) that skill challenges as initially presented in the books didn't live up to my expectations.

Of those, B is my biggest peeve, but it's a minor one since when I run my own games, I can house rule to fix that sort of stuff. The basic spine of the game is good.

 

[jaerdaph]

Well, you can't spell "analogy" without the...

 

[Rel]

Well, you can't spell "analogy" without the...

...log?