D&D (2024) Do you plan to adopt D&D5.5One2024Redux?

[EzekielRaiden]

I think that I understand that you're mostly saying that it's behaviour that you don't want the game to encourage, and I agree with that. But I'm not sure that "players having expectations" is always (or even usually) going to be a "problem".

Well, "players having expectations" is pretty much what folks are actually complaining about when they speak of "player entitlement."

And folks wonder why I have such a dim view of the DM who declares absolute authority and follows up any form of questioning with "what, don't you trust your DM?" Assuming they're feeling pretty friendly, of course. (If they aren't, questions are met with rather more of a drumhead.)

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Well, "players having expectations" is pretty much what folks are actually complaining about when they speak of "player entitlement."

And folks wonder why I have such a dim view of the DM who declares absolute authority and follows up any form of questioning with "what, don't you trust your DM?" Assuming they're feeling pretty friendly, of course. (If they aren't, questions are met with rather more of a drumhead.)

Again, to me, both ends of "Player Entitlement" and "DM Tyranny" are solved by "Playing Nice With Others".

Neither players having expectations nor DMs having authority are problems in themselves. They're both good and natural parts of the game!

 

[tetrasodium]

I'm always sad about how unreasonable you manage to make your players sound.

It's kinda weird to shift to expectations my players when this very thread has posts (including the one I quoted) providing varying degrees of support for the expectation without responsibility or effort from the player.

I think that I understand that you're mostly saying that it's behaviour that you don't want the game to encourage, and I agree with that. But I'm not sure that "players having expectations" is always (or even usually) going to be a "problem".

But then, I consider the #1 rule of D&D to be "Play Nice With Others". If someone can't do that, then they shouldn't play D&D. Better, though: They should learn how to do it.

It goes even beyond that though. We have only the player half the subsystem, the GM side push mechanic got cut& the result is the last several pages of back and forth. Mearls describes the other half starting at about 1:21:20 in five generations of d&d Design panel after some discussion about the MiC rare crafting component philosophy. Thankfully it looks like 2024 is dropping the mistake of including either half.

 

[Lanefan]

I'm always sad about how unreasonable you manage to make your players sound.

I think @tetrasodium 's players sound perfectly reasonable: if the game gives you an inch, try to take a mile. That's the players' job.

To prevent this, the game shouldn't be giving them that inch without making it abundantly clear that the inch is all they get. In other words, set the expectations right where they're intended to be, rather than leaving loopholes for players to exploit or DMs to have to shut down.

 

[Stormonu]

Again, to me, both ends of "Player Entitlement" and "DM Tyranny" are solved by "Playing Nice With Others".

Neither players having expectations nor DMs having authority are problems in themselves. They're both good and natural parts of the game!

It's taken me some time, but I've come to appreciate that D&D tends to a better experience when its shared between PC and DM world-building. After all, the DM can't think of everything, and moving some of that load off to players can inject something unexpected and wonderful.

 

[Oofta]

Just a note ... when it comes to folk hero the examples given are 100% "You're a folk hero because of your reputation". Which, cool. People who know what you did consider you a hero.

d10	Defining Event
1	I stood up to a tyrant’s agents.
2	I saved people during a natural disaster.
3	I stood alone against a terrible monster.
4	I stole from a corrupt merchant to help the poor.
5	I led a militia to fight off an invading army.
6	I broke into a tyrant’s castle and stole weapons to arm the people.
7	I trained the peasantry to use farm implements as weapons against a tyrant’s soldiers.
8	A lord rescinded an unpopular decree after I led a symbolic act of protest against it.
9	A celestial, fey, or similar creature gave me a blessing or revealed my secret origin.
10	Recruited into a lord’s army, I rose to leadership and was commended for my heroism.

 

[Yaarel]

It's taken me some time, but I've come to appreciate that D&D tends to a better experience when its shared between PC and DM world-building. After all, the DM can't think of everything, and moving some of that load off to players can inject something unexpected and wonderful.

Also, when players help build the setting, they invest more in the setting, which is better for the game for many reasons.

 

[Faolyn]

It's taken me some time, but I've come to appreciate that D&D tends to a better experience when its shared between PC and DM world-building. After all, the DM can't think of everything, and moving some of that load off to players can inject something unexpected and wonderful.

I've done that for my upcoming game, and I have to say I think the world and the plots are both richer than anything I've ever come up with on my own.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

It's kinda weird to shift to expectations my players

I'm not insulting your players, and I'm not talking about just in this thread. You often characterize players in general in a way that makes them sound like horribly entitled game-breaking sociopaths.

But as I said above, the principle of what I think you're trying to get at is sound. And I agree that I hope that the 2024 DMG does a good job of proper DM empowerment (which is a far stretch from DM Tyranny).

I think @tetrasodium 's players sound perfectly reasonable: if the game gives you an inch, try to take a mile. That's the players' job.

I'm honestly glad that I don't play with players who are like that, or games that encourage that behaviour. YMMV. My groups are all about cooperation. There's no divide between players and DMs in that regard.

Just a note ... when it comes to folk hero the examples given are 100% "You're a folk hero because of your reputation". Which, cool. People who know what you did consider you a hero. (CHART)

Yeah, that's what makes them a "Folk Hero", but it's not what gives them "Rustic Hospitality". The way RH is described, it's because they're commoners that NPCs help them out, not because they're Heroes.

 

[Oofta]

...
Yeah, that's what makes them a "Folk Hero", but it's not what gives them "Rustic Hospitality". The way RH is described, it's because they're commoners that NPCs help them out, not because they're Heroes.

But basically all of the backgrounds can come from a commoner background. The only difference with the folk hero is that people know they did something awesome. Even a noble could have the common "raised by peasants to hide them away" trope.

Without a supernatural explanation nothing sets folk hero apart than their reputation in areas where word of their reputation has not spread.