Does two-weapon fighting stack with flurry?

[ForceUser]

AGGEMAM raises a good point about flurry and TWF each being separate types of full attack actions, but upon reading the text I found this:

Flurry: When unarmored, a monk may strike with flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack per round at her highest base attack bonus...

TWF: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon...

Neither is a full attack action, but an additional attack when taking a full attack action. They definitely stack in 3.5.

 

[AGGEMAM]

The 3.0 FAQ also has this to say:

If a monk wields a one-handed weapon, can she use her
unarmed damage if she kicks or headbutts someone? Or
does the monk have to actually be unarmed to get this
damage? What if the monk is armed with a two-handed
weapon?

A monk wielding a one-handed weapon (other than a special
monk weapon) can use the rules for fighting with two weapons
and can use her unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, with all
the appropriate penalties (see page 39 in the Player’s
Handbook). The unarmed strike is considered a light weapon.
Although the Player’s Handbook mentions using the
unarmed attack only as an off-hand attack, there’s no reason
why a monk couldn’t make her unarmed attack her primary
attack. In this case, the monk still must use her (lower) armed
attack rate.
If the monk wields a two-handed weapon, she can use a kick
or similar attack as an off-hand attack. This works just like an
off-hand attack made along with a one-handed weapon attack.

But then again the 3.0 PHB is pretty clear that you cannot use flurry with TWF .. :\

 

[silentspace]

Fun thread! I see compelling arguments on both sides.

But I was wondering - if a monk were flurrying with a kama in one hand and a siangham in the other, he can make attacks with any combination, right?

How would it work when (if) you add TWF? Can you also choose which weapon, on a round-by-round basis, which is the off-hand weapon?

Another question: Take a kama-wielding (exotic weapon) monk. She multiclasses into Exotic Weapon Master and takes Flurry of Strikes. Can she use both Flurry of Blows and Flurry of Strikes together?

 

[ForceUser]

Fun thread! I see compelling arguments on both sides.

But I was wondering - if a monk were flurrying with a kama in one hand and a siangham in the other, he can make attacks with any combination, right?

How would it work when (if) you add TWF? Can you also choose which weapon, on a round-by-round basis, which is the off-hand weapon?

Another question: Take a kama-wielding (exotic weapon) monk. She multiclasses into Exotic Weapon Master and takes Flurry of Strikes. Can she use both Flurry of Blows and Flurry of Strikes together?

Wow! Good questions. I don't see why she couldn't use both flurries together: just stack the -2 flurry of strikes penalty on top of her monk flurry. The penalty to hit is a big balancing factor, especially with a monk's unimpressive BAB.

As for flurry + TWF with a pair of monk weapons, it's simple; take an 8th-level monk with TWF and a pair of monk weapons. His attacks per round when using both TWF and flurry would look like this:

1st on-hand attack/2nd on-hand attack and off-hand attack and flurry attack

All four attacks would suffer a cumulative -4 penalty (-2 for TWF and -2 for flurry). The off-hand weapon would always be the weapon in the character's off hand, usually his left. So if the monk above wielded the kama in his off-hand, that would always be the off-hand weapon. This model assumes, of course, that the monk is using the weapons in his hands for his two iterative attacks and his off-hand attack, and any part of his body or a monk weapon for his flurry attack.

 

[ForceUser]

An 11th level fighter/1st level exotic weapon master with flurry of strikes and wielding a two-bladed sword might look like this on a full attack, assuming the following is true:

22 Str (18 natural, +4 girdle of giant strength)
19 Dex (17 natural, +2 boots of dexterity)
+1/+1 two-bladed sword
Weapon Focus (two-bladed sword)
Greater Weapon Focus (two-bladed sword)
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting


Attack: +1 two-bladed sword +21 melee
Full Attack: +1/+1 two-bladed sword +17/+17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+7 melee (flurry and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting)

To deconstruct:

+17 (flurry attack)/+17 (Two-Weapon Fighting attack)/+17 (1st iterative attack)/+12 (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting attack)/+12 (2nd iterative attack)/+7 (Greater Two-Weapon Fighting attack/+7 (3rd iterative attack)

 

[AGGEMAM]

She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired.

Heavily suggests that Flurry of Blows is a special full attack action because TWF requires you to strike with one weapon first and then the other weapon. you cannot use the two weapons interchangeably as desired when TWF'ing.

If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.

When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus x 1-1/2 or x 1/2) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands.

This also heavily implies that when using flurry of blows even with special monk weapons you do not have an off hand which makes it silly to talk about TWF (which is an extra attack from an off-hand weapon).

 

[Camarath]

Another question: Take a kama-wielding (exotic weapon) monk. She multiclasses into Exotic Weapon Master and takes Flurry of Strikes. Can she use both Flurry of Blows and Flurry of Strikes together?

IMO she can. My position is that abilities that grant additional attacks when making a Full Attack Action stack unless the rules state otherwise.

 

[ForceUser]

Heavily suggests that Flurry of Blows is a special full attack action because TWF requires you to strike with one weapon first and then the other weapon. you cannot use the two weapons interchangeably as desired when TWF'ing.





This also heavily implies that when using flurry of blows even with special monk weapons you do not have an off hand which makes it silly to talk about TWF (which is an extra attack from an off-hand weapon).

"Heavily suggests," unfortunately, isn't the same as seeing it in text. I suppose this issue could use clarification from the Sage, but his answers aren't often satisfying and sometimes just create more questions. In my campaign, combing the two attack forms will be possible until the issue is otherwise clarified. In D&D, if the text doesn't say you can't, then you can.

 

[AGGEMAM]

"Heavily suggests," unfortunately, isn't the same as seeing it in text.

I know. Well, the first doesn't really heavily suggest. I flat out disallows it. But that depends on where you put the stipulation of the sentence.

Anyways, I'll keep looking.

It was so much easier in 3.0 where it was flat out disallowed by the rules.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Given that Haste, Rapid Shot, and Flurry of Blows, for example, all use essentially identical wording:

When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding.

You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.

When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a –2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.

... it would seem to me that if one disallows Flurry and TWF (due to "You must use a full attack action"), one must also disallow Haste and TWF, or Rapid Shot and TWF.

But none of those appear supported by the rules, to me - it's not like Circle Kick or Dirty Fighting, which stated "When taking the Full Attack Action, you can give up your regular attacks, and..."

As far as the most recent WotC comment on Flurry and TWF, Andrew Finch (RPG R&D Development Manager, WotC) addressed it in this thread, stating "Sure, no problem"... even for a monk striking unarmed.

I disagree personally with that last, but I certainly agree that in 3.5, it's possible while using special monk weapons.

Interestingly, in 3E, it was possible to combine TWF and Flurry, with a single monk weapon in your primary hand.

A monk fighting with a one-handed weapon can make an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, but she suffers the standard penalties for two-weapon fighting. Likewise, a monk with a weapon (other than a special monk weapon) in her off hand gets an extra attack with that weapon but suffers the usual penalties for two-weapon fighting and can't strike with a flurry of blows.

You're fighting with a one-handed weapon, so you can explicitly make an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack (suffering the standard TWF penalties).

You don't have a weapon in your off-hand, nor are you using any weapon prohibited in a Flurry, so you're not prevented from striking with a Flurry of Blows.

-Hyp.