Dragonlance: Our LotR?

Mark Hope said:
The new 3.5 versions (judging by Dragons of Autumn) are a real treat - plenty of cool options and lots of extra goodies :).

Because I am... mercurial... and my birthday is in a week or so, I decided just randomly ordered War of the Lance and Dragons of Autumn.

Hope they're good.
 

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I've been gaming now for, oh, 15+ years... and the first high fantasy novel I was introduced to before I started gaming was via DragonLance.... I want to say Darkness & Light. While I had read some fantasy before (CS Lewis's chronicles), Dragonlance was the first that introduced an entirely alternate setting, as opposed to variant Earths. Tolkien I read much later.

And looking back, yes, the Chronicles Krynn did share many aspects of Tolkien's writing - declining elf civilization, secluded dwarves, a lack of divine magic, etc. But... to me, Tolkien's world was too... dull. Sure, it was very well written, but at a time in my life when I was more interested in what was going on rather than if the work's prose was elegant, DragonLance hooked me in.

While I've never played in a DL campaign (plenty of FR, Eberron, DarkSun, and lots and lots of homebrew), the characters from that book are the ones that first spring to mind for archetypes - Caramon bashing two draconians' skulls together and killing both is a real fighter, Raistlin giving up his humanity in pursuit of the Art, only to find it again after traveling time and space.

I know that the Chronicles and Legends triloges have had a much stronger influence on my view of D&D, and gaming in general, than Tolkien ever did. Tolkien made me appreciate great fantasy literature. Dragonlance made me appreciate great gaming campaigns.

And to touch on a post on the 1st page - Sturm's death to me was poignant and fitting, but did not make me sad. Flint's death made me both sad and angry. This is a hero and this is how he dies?!? But it added a touch to realism to the world - death was not always about sword fights and explosions, even for the legendary.
 

Hussar said:
While this may be me misremembering Cam, but I believe that the original modules more or less assumed that you were going to play the Heroes. I think that, more than anything else, colored people's perceptions. It certainly did mine.

Right - this was considered one of the strengths at the time. The adventures certainly allowed you to play your own characters and I know of many DMs who did just that, but the storyline in some places was linked to the pregens. When Clark and I talked over how to handle this in Dragons of Autumn, we came up with the archetypes idea.

Although, OTOH, plot protection for characters was a bit much. :)

Oh, sure. But this is a common trope among epic stories and serial adventures - the bad guys always come back, have "mysterious deaths" and so forth. This is lifted in DL8 Dragons of War so that one of the players can have a tragic ending at the High Clerists Tower, but of course there's no obligation to do that.

Do note that at many points in the earlier modules there are suggestions that this or that kind of character would make for a good replacement if one of the other characters drops out of the story, so it was at least mentioned.

Cheers,
Cam
 

Oh, hey, don't get me wrong Cam. I bought all the DL modules, collected the books for quite a while before moving on to other stuff, the works. Think I even had a DL calendar at one point. So, yeah, I was a fan.

Just could never make the #$%#$%($Y% modules work for me. :)
 

I liked both LotR and DL, though LotR wins out in my book.

However, the main reason why LotR wins out over DL for me is that LotR ended. Though I can understand why DL didn't end after Legends or Chronicles, I think that DL would have been better if it did end.

To be honest, the series that kicked it all off for me was Alexander's Chronicles of Prydain series; if it wasn't for that, I'd never have read LotR, DL, Leiber, Moorcock, Icewind Dale, or a lot of other fantasy fiction works.

The main thing I really liked about DL (for me) is that Caramon was depicted as left-handed (well, mainly since I'm left-handed). It was a nice change to see a left-handed protagonist (esp. in related art), since I haven't had much luck seeing left-handed heroes before then (left-handedness seemed to crop up with villains, though).
 

I'll address each point in turn:

Cam Banks said:
The revised Classic adventures we're producing now (Dragons of Autumn was the first, and I'm working on Dragons of Winter at the moment) use the concept of character archetypes to frame the narrative. The original pregens are included (Tanis, Caramon, etc) and assigned an archetype, but we expect people to create their own characters to fill those archetypes if they don't want to walk in the footsteps of the novel characters.

Cheers,
Cam

And you do a great job of it. I love Dragons of Autumn, especially given that you don't cut things out just because they didn't appear in the novels. Your idea of archetypes is also a very good one, striking balance between those who want to play as the Companions and those who don't, and also offering some new twists, like the Sage's bond with Whisper.


Xvanthon said:
I guess my fantasy leanings are still a mixed bag as far as literary worth goes. Frankly, I don't put much stock in what accademics and critics say has more merit.

Good for you. I feel the same way about pretentious, snobby music critics who think they have some god-given right to arbitrarily decide what consists of "good taste" in music, and savage anyone who dares to disagree with them.


mhacdebhandia said:
Seriously, though: why shouldn't people who dislike The Lord of the Rings feel comfortable in expressing that opinion?

I don't consider Tolkien's work to be important to what I value in fantasy fiction, except inasmuch as some of the writers I do admire were reacting against his influence in the genre. Why should I not make my opinion known?

Chances are because of the backlash against the standard dwarves and elves, now regarded as cliched and overdone: Tolkien suffers because his work was what inspired that. I personally think that notion is ridiculous, and I won't play in a gameworld that has no dwarves or elves, but QFT.

Krolik said:
Dragonlance taught me about role-playing rather then the roll-playing I had been doing for years. Until Dragonlance I never really saw how stats could influence how you played the character. If you had a low CON then you just didn't get Hit Point bonuses. If you had a high INT you got more spells. If you had a high STR you hit harder. I never thought about a low CON being sickly or a high INT making you frustrated by those around you with lower INT, etc. Dragonlance took me from playing a miniature battle and occasionally speaking in character to looking at the character and write-up as a whole and developing them in a way that was more then just me playing myself.

That's the funny thing about some of the DL stats, though: the game stats don't always seem to reflect the public persona of the character. Flint has a CON of 18, and yet he has rheumatism, old age, and dies of heart disease. His INT is only 7, which should make him as dumb as a box of rocks, but he still seems brighter than Caramon. Arman Kharas's WIS is only 6, which would seem to make him a pretty bad ruler if he were ever to become High King of Thorbardin, and yet he doesn't seem to make rash, stupid decisions. Neither does King Lorac, whose WIS is only 7. That doesn't exactly mark him out as a great statesman. So how did he last so long as king of Silvanesti when he was such an idiot?

Aaron L said:
The fact that the the "absent minded tinker" replaced the 1st Edition gnomish culture and became a standard for gnomes in D&D and elsewhere since then (even frigging EverQuest and World of Warcraft!) still infuriates me to this day, and I strip it out of the race in every game I run.

Trust me, you're not alone. I was both confused and annoyed by the depiction of gnomes, wondering how the hell they managed to survive as a race if none of their inventions ever worked right. How have they avoided blowing up Mount Nevermind, much less managed to construct a viable society, if their inventions are always failing?

1E gnome culture all the way, man. Although, now I make gnomes master engineers, so that while dwarves are better craftsmen, no one can beat a gnome when it comes to design and execution.
 

CruelSummerLord said:
Chances are because of the backlash against the standard dwarves and elves, now regarded as cliched and overdone: Tolkien suffers because his work was what inspired that. I personally think that notion is ridiculous, and I won't play in a gameworld that has no dwarves or elves, but QFT.
Hmm. How far does this go? For instance, would you play in Eberron, where the elves are quite unlike Tolkien's elves but still derived from D&D's elves? What about Dark Sun, where the elves are crazy desert-dwelling tribal nomads?
 

Been thinking about this a bit since last posting, and I think we may be wandering a little bit off the main topic of the post.

There are two levels of answering the OP I think.

1.) I think that one answer to the question of the OP is to define the relationship of JRRT material to DnD and then see if the relationship of DL to DnD after it is equivalent.

I think it is not.

JRRT was source material for crafting a system(s).

DL was a manner of presentation, or even a standard of presentation of DnD materials. It "worked", and many successful settings followed the same "standards".

2.) The other answer was spelled out in the very first post, and it is whether or not DL fiction and/or the world/modules/setting formed the "reference points" for gamers after its release.

For me personally, obviously, it did not. When I think ranger I immediately think Aragorn, not Tanis. When I think wizard I think Gandalf, not Raistlin. When I think elf I think Legolas. When I think dwarf I think Gimli. When I think halfling I think Bilbo.

The question for point number 2 is whether or no this is so for gamers in general, I think.

Thoughts? Feedback?
 

mhacdebhandia said:
Hmm. How far does this go? For instance, would you play in Eberron, where the elves are quite unlike Tolkien's elves but still derived from D&D's elves? What about Dark Sun, where the elves are crazy desert-dwelling tribal nomads?

The halmark of all D&D and fantasy heartbreaker settings seems to be "how different can I make elves" -- it is like a badge of honor to make elves into twisted creations or totally nerfed imbeciles. At least Exalted had the respect enough to keep them godlings like Tolkien intended (though they are still twisted).

As far as gnomes go -- the only thing i hate more than tinker gnomes are gully dwarves, with kender a very close third.
 

Reynard said:
As far as gnomes go -- the only thing i hate more than tinker gnomes are gully dwarves, with kender a very close third.

QFT! ROFL!! :lol: :lol:

Seems we have something in common despite the literary standards sir! :D
 

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