Dropping Intelligence

[Cheiromancer]

As Nifft said, tinkering with rules is fun, and stuff.

The proposal is basically to merge Intelligence and Charisma. I view it as Charisma absorbing the game mechanical functions of Intelligence, but logically it is possible to view it as Intelligence absorbing the game mechanical functions of Charisma. I wouldn't, and here's why:

Charisma, in its etymological sense of gifts, could be any sort of talent or blessing or sign of favor. Good looks, luck, a magnetic personality, book learning, magical ability, the works. Intelligence is more limited. What in real life we call intelligence could be regarded as one of the bounties we are beneficiaries of; part of our Charisma. But it is hard to think of magnetic personality or physical good looks as part of intelligence. Charisma is the broader term, and so intelligence can be part of it, but not vice versa.

Another reason is that in RPGs the players have to reason and plan for their characters. Reasoning and planning is the main part of what we call Intelligence, and it is something that characters can't exhibit; only the players can do it. Which leads to questions about how to roleplay a character who has a 26 intelligence, or inane player statements about "Oh, my character would have remembered to ask the Innkeeper about any unusual travellers" and the like. It is easier and more accurate to play the characters the way the players like, but refer to the character's "gifts" to see what they can do. This is reflected in a system with Charisma but not Intelligence.

As to the difficulty or ease of this, well, if you were to convert a monster or NPC to this system, it would probably be easier in most cases to simply drop the Charisma score, and rename Intelligence as Charisma. Adjust a few social skills and knowledge skills, and you are done.

For characters built on Charisma (e.g. paladins, sorcerers and bards) it would be easier to drop the Intelligence score, and buy a few more skill ranks. Remember to modify any knowledge and craft skills that may be present.

Really, I don't think it would be that difficult to work with, once you got used to it.

 

[Snowy]

I could see an argument to drop charisma, then we could lose all the my characters pretty but unpleasant discussions.

Shift sorceror spellcasting to int? or wisdom? intelligence able to examine the underlying structure of how the world works and solve the problem of just where to puch to make it do what you want. Wisdom your depth of understanding of the world allows you to bend it to your will.

not sure what to base diplomacy and bluff off of though.

 

[apesamongus]

I'd actually drop wisdom. Move (most) divine casting and saves to Cha and all the skills to Int.

 

[Snowy]

actually now i've sat and thought about it more, I'll retract my statment, I can imagine the difference between a character with high or low any of the stats, the only change that I possibly would make is moving will saves to be charisma based. Removes its dump stat basis stops clerics and druids will saves being absolutely sky high, makes sorcerors a little stronger. Wisdom I think will survive as being the base for spot, listen, sense motive and survival that I will make hurt if a whole party dumps too far.

Only problem is it doesn't hurt clerics enough.

Back on topic, I think the idea of removing base stats is a very precarious one, while its not perfectly balanced, its been playtested and adjusted over a very long time now and the balance is very very odd.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Have folks seen the "Players usually die of stupidity" poll over in general? The title speaks for itself. Player Characters die when their players are stupid. My contention is that intelligence is not a PC attribute; it is a player attribute. And therefore intelligence is the best candidate of a PC attribute to be dropped.

It enables sorcerers to catch up in skill points to wizards; note that most sorc variants have extra skill points that let them do exactly that. It helps eliminate the MAD of paladins (multiple attribute dependency) that makes most paladins so stupid.

And of course it prevents Charisma from being a dump stat.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

I dislike this idea. Not only are the 6 abilities a sacred cow (one of the most sacred) but if you start walking down the path of trying to combine game mechanics together where do you draw the line?
Also intelegence is indeed seperate from charisma just in the way its described, if you were to ask anyone understood the meaning of those 2 words they would tell you they do not mean the same thing.

As far as the justification that players should use their own intelegence and it shouldn't be a character stat, then niether should any mental ability score. You could make an argument players should use their own physical abilities as well.

 

[Sadrik]

Fewer abilities

Dang, I was going to post this as my next, stat variant. I like combining wis and cha much better than splitting int into wis and cha. Its not that I cant see your argument, its just I think int should be important.

Something on the same wavelength and something that we argued over in the other thread is strength and con. By combining both of them you do away with the splitting hairs over the meaning of str and con.

Oh the wits save is the weakest save. It helps you figure out things like disbelieving, "oh thats an illusion." Or "oh the phantasm is just in my head." all other mental things would still fall under the Will save.

Read on...

Fewer abilities
Under this variant characters would only have four abilities Body, Dexterity, Intelligence and Willpower. The four abilities would work the same as they would for any game except that the Body and Willpower abilities are different. Body is an amalgamation of Strength and Constitution and is by far the most potent stat in a fantasy game where physical melee combat is the most common form of combat. Dexterity is unchanged from the standard ability and is still powerful in not getting hit by attackers etc. Under this variant I would use the Dexterity to hit and Strength to damage variant to spread out the power of the Body ability. Intelligence is unchanged it would still grant you skill points (unless using one of the other variants) and is the ability that controls the most skills. I would also institute the Wits saving throw to fill out the stat. Both wisdom and charisma encompass the Willpower ability. Charisma often seen as a dump ability; becomes much more desirable under this option.
To convert creatures and characters to this system take the average of the creature or characters two abilities and then take the highest ability of the two and average them again.
So for example suppose while attempting to figure out a supposed cleric characters Willpower ability she had an 18 wisdom and a 10 charisma averaged to be 14 (18+10=28 28/2=14) then average the 14 with the highest ability again to be 16 (18+14=32 32/2=16). So her Willpower stat would be 16. Do the body stat the exact same way.
The player’s handbook races would have slightly different racial ability adjustments. I do them as shown below. I change the elf from its standard +2 Dexterity to Intelligence to prevent duplication of the Halflings ability adjustments. I changed the Dwarfs penalty to Dexterity to prevent overlap with the Half-orc and finally I changed the Gnome for several reasons.

Race Ability Adjustment
Dwarf +2 Body, -2 Dexterity
Elf +2 Intelligence, -2 Body
Gnome +2 Willpower, -2 Body
Halfling +2 Dexterity, -2 Body
Half-orc +2 Body, -2 Willpower
Half-elf None
Human None

Sadrik

 

[Cheiromancer]

My background is probably influencing the way I see "Charisma." I'm a priest in a Catholic religious community, and the notion of a "charism" is pretty well known in these circles. It is the niche or knack or talent a community or an individual has; the things they do well. The Dominicans are preachers, for example, and the Jesuits have the spiritual exercises. You can think of it as the role of a base or prestige class; that's what a charism is. Education can be a charism. Thinking of "Charisma" as a kind of quantitative pool of an individual's charisms is thus quite natural to me; and their education or mental endowment (in a word, their intelligence) is included in the pool.

The other thing is that a player's contribution to their character is best described, imho, as intelligence. Since that is the player's role, it shouldn't be a character stat. Aust Diamondew says that according to this reasoning, characters shouldn't have any mental stats, or physical ones for that matter.

As far as the justification that players should use their own intelegence and it shouldn't be a character stat, then niether should any mental ability score. You could make an argument players should use their own physical abilities as well.

But that isn't right. Players can't detect things in the game universe, but have to depend on the DMs description, which he gives if the characters make spot, listen and search checks, which are based on Wisdom. Players don't resist a ghoul's paralysis- the character does, based on their fort saves. What the characters do not do is make and execute plans of their own. That is what the players do, and that is what I think is best captured by intelligence.

Now, intelligence can also be used to refer to someone's mental talents, but talents are charisms, as I described above, and I argue they should be governed by Charisma.

Oh, and Sadrik, I think it would be best to discuss your variant in a new thread. I would be willing to argue here why it is better to drop Intelligence than Wisdom or Charisma, but I don't see the purpose of the thread as being as wide ranging as your post envisions.

 

[Sadrik]

Oh, and Sadrik, I think it would be best to discuss your variant in a new thread. I would be willing to argue here why it is better to drop Intelligence than Wisdom or Charisma, but I don't see the purpose of the thread as being as wide ranging as your post envisions.

Sure, I'll do that. New thread on the way.

Ok, new thread done.

Interesting, I can further explain your point by saying anybody can be book smart, it is that further knack that realy makes someone smart. How fast you can absorb new things details and retain them, being able to see complex patterns and find causalities etc. Those could theoretically get placed into another stat like charisma. Rename the stat knack and you have it about right imo. Have it incompass what you were talking about and intelligence.

Intelligence can also be explained away in a game system by making what skills you have the deciding factor. For instance if your character takes a lot of knowledge skills then your character is smart. If they take other stuff then they are not.

Sadrik

 

[Aust Diamondew]

The other thing is that a player's contribution to their character is best described, imho, as intelligence. Since that is the player's role, it shouldn't be a character stat. Aust Diamondew says that according to this reasoning, characters shouldn't have any mental stats, or physical ones for that matter.

But that isn't right. Players can't detect things in the game universe, but have to depend on the DMs description, which he gives if the characters make spot, listen and search checks, which are based on Wisdom. Players don't resist a ghoul's paralysis- the character does, based on their fort saves. What the characters do not do is make and execute plans of their own. That is what the players do, and that is what I think is best captured by intelligence.

Now, intelligence can also be used to refer to someone's mental talents, but talents are charisms, as I described above, and I argue they should be governed by Charisma.

Charisma in d&d represents your characters force of personality and how well he can communicate with and convince others that his opinion is right etc.
Now then shouldn't the players be ones using their own diplomatic and social skills when interacting with NPCs? (and in my games they do but they also make a diplomacy check and a bluff check)

I'm just trying to show how using your line of thought charisma could just as easily be dumped from the game as intelligence.