jmucchiello
Hero
I think Darian was dashing up and then hiding. So he might be closer and hidden at the moment. And then he'll attack the fleeing goblin with surprise. (Hopefully)
D&D 5E EB's Storm King's Thunder - OOC (FULL)
FitzTheRuke
Legend
Not arguing, but I'm trying to understand. (Even after 5 years of playing 5e more than weekly, I can't say I know ALL the rules back-to front):
Where do you get that from? Obviously, feel free to rule it, but I haven't seen that anywhere in 5e. It's easy enough to slip it in from other editions/games (I've done that myself)... but I don't think its there.
As far as I know, the fact that you have to use your action to hide (which could otherwise be used to dash)... or Bonus Action, which also could be used to dash... implies that you're moving slower than you otherwise could be. It's more like you hustle from one hiding place to another, rather than tip-toe along.
I dunno, it's your game. I'm just curious as to if that's somewhere in the rules I haven't seen.
Well I have been looking into Stealth and Movement. It is ambiguous at best. Everyone having an opinion but no real RAW.
I did learn in my search that a Rogue can not move, - action: dash, - bonus action: cunning action to dash to move around normally. A Rogue needs to be in combat to use his cunning action ability.
It does seem that I have a case of versionitis (as jmucchiello puts it) where it comes to Stealth and Movement. I thought a character made a check and to keep hidden they needed to move at 1/2 speed. Not so, now you just make the check and it is either contested or against the passive perception with no over thinking.
During combat is where it gets complicated and is (as it should be) harder to do. The main thing is if you can't hide from a creature that can see you, before making the hide check. So you will need to be hidden before you can hide?
Ideals? I'm all ears.
I did learn in my search that a Rogue can not move, - action: dash, - bonus action: cunning action to dash to move around normally. A Rogue needs to be in combat to use his cunning action ability.
It does seem that I have a case of versionitis (as jmucchiello puts it) where it comes to Stealth and Movement. I thought a character made a check and to keep hidden they needed to move at 1/2 speed. Not so, now you just make the check and it is either contested or against the passive perception with no over thinking.
During combat is where it gets complicated and is (as it should be) harder to do. The main thing is if you can't hide from a creature that can see you, before making the hide check. So you will need to be hidden before you can hide?
Ideals? I'm all ears.
I’ve always said that the DM decides if the Hide Action is available. For me, the Hide Action is to make it so the enemy doesn’t know where you are. Diving behind a table does not mean they don’t know where you are. They know where you are. More specifically, i believe the the Hide Action is really only relevant to prevent someone from noticing you in the first place.
Even in combat, barring invisibility, I’d say once you’ve been seen, you can no longer hide. But, I would probably allow a Rogue to attempt to hide each turn until they are seen. So, if they’re firing arrows from bushes, and their stealth rolls keep beating the enemy perception rolls, then as a DM I’d take that to mean the enemy can’t tell where the arrows are coming from. I’d probably allow the same with melee combat, but with disadvantage to the stealth roll. I mean, the concept of stealthily taking out an entire team of bad guys, with them having no idea where you are, is a staple for many characters (Batman, etc.), so I’d allow it to be attempted.
But once one person has seen them, the game is up and hiding is off the table, barring special circumstances.
Even in combat, barring invisibility, I’d say once you’ve been seen, you can no longer hide. But, I would probably allow a Rogue to attempt to hide each turn until they are seen. So, if they’re firing arrows from bushes, and their stealth rolls keep beating the enemy perception rolls, then as a DM I’d take that to mean the enemy can’t tell where the arrows are coming from. I’d probably allow the same with melee combat, but with disadvantage to the stealth roll. I mean, the concept of stealthily taking out an entire team of bad guys, with them having no idea where you are, is a staple for many characters (Batman, etc.), so I’d allow it to be attempted.
But once one person has seen them, the game is up and hiding is off the table, barring special circumstances.
FitzTheRuke
Legend
As far as I know, this is how it works:
You need to move out of line-of-sight (or at least behind some solid cover - I'm not quite sure about that). How much movement you use to do that doesn't matter, as long as it follows any of your movement limitations. Once you are behind cover from whoever you're trying to hide from, you use your Action (or Bonus Action if you have that ability) to Hide. You roll Dex (Stealth) against the target's Passive Perception. If you make it, they can't see you. They may be vaguely aware that you're over there somewhere, but you get whatever benefits (like Advantage on your attack, or whatever) from being hidden. You are spotted if you move back into line-of-sight before attacking.
Outside of combat depends on the mode, I guess. In Exploration mode (which is really used for overland travel, usually) you can use stealth when travelling at a slow pace, which is usually 2/3 whatever speed you'd normally travel at (like 20 miles in a hike instead of 30.) It looks like that goes for city-scale or dungeon scale too. So if you're exploring in 1 minute segments, your average character would go up to 200 feet while sneaking.
That kind of scale is usually used outside of an encounter, though, and usually only used to determine whether you have surprise or not. It also usually assumes that the party sticks together, for the most part. Once you run into something, if you've been stealthy enough (ie beat their PP with your stealth). Then it goes into combat rounds and you have a surprise round first, where you can now move-dash-hide if you're a rogue.
In our specific situation, surprise is probably a given, considering that the goblins had pumpkins on their heads at the point of encounter. The starting point for a rogue character relative to everyone else is more a matter of what everyone was doing at the time the encounter began (was he scouting ahead or sticking with everyone else or looking at something), rather than having anything to do with the rogue's ability to triple-move in combat.
In this case, if the rogue's player thinks they should be further ahead, then they probably should be.
In conclusion: It seems that once an encounter has started, it's more a matter of running from cover-to-cover, rather than sneaking around. In exploration, you sneak around, but that ends once an encounter happens. The grey area between the two is where we've found ourselves, which is why it's a bit tricky.
You need to move out of line-of-sight (or at least behind some solid cover - I'm not quite sure about that). How much movement you use to do that doesn't matter, as long as it follows any of your movement limitations. Once you are behind cover from whoever you're trying to hide from, you use your Action (or Bonus Action if you have that ability) to Hide. You roll Dex (Stealth) against the target's Passive Perception. If you make it, they can't see you. They may be vaguely aware that you're over there somewhere, but you get whatever benefits (like Advantage on your attack, or whatever) from being hidden. You are spotted if you move back into line-of-sight before attacking.
Outside of combat depends on the mode, I guess. In Exploration mode (which is really used for overland travel, usually) you can use stealth when travelling at a slow pace, which is usually 2/3 whatever speed you'd normally travel at (like 20 miles in a hike instead of 30.) It looks like that goes for city-scale or dungeon scale too. So if you're exploring in 1 minute segments, your average character would go up to 200 feet while sneaking.
That kind of scale is usually used outside of an encounter, though, and usually only used to determine whether you have surprise or not. It also usually assumes that the party sticks together, for the most part. Once you run into something, if you've been stealthy enough (ie beat their PP with your stealth). Then it goes into combat rounds and you have a surprise round first, where you can now move-dash-hide if you're a rogue.
In our specific situation, surprise is probably a given, considering that the goblins had pumpkins on their heads at the point of encounter. The starting point for a rogue character relative to everyone else is more a matter of what everyone was doing at the time the encounter began (was he scouting ahead or sticking with everyone else or looking at something), rather than having anything to do with the rogue's ability to triple-move in combat.
In this case, if the rogue's player thinks they should be further ahead, then they probably should be.
In conclusion: It seems that once an encounter has started, it's more a matter of running from cover-to-cover, rather than sneaking around. In exploration, you sneak around, but that ends once an encounter happens. The grey area between the two is where we've found ourselves, which is why it's a bit tricky.
FitzTheRuke
Legend
Interestingly, my theory is almost the opposite of Tglassy's and we both are backed up by the rules.
It depends on what rules you put the accent on - If you consider that the rules state that you can't attempt to hide if you are currently seen (Tglassy is enforcing this one, while I think you just need to get behind something to deal with that). Whereas he's playing fast-and-loose (in my mind) about where the rules say as soon as you attack, you are then seen. (Again, I still assume that you just need to get out of line-of-sight again).
Tglassy's Batman example is a good one, though I think he's got an ability like the Wood Elf, who can use light obscurement (like rain!) to hide in. Batman uses "the cover of darkness" (obscurement) to do that.
It depends on what rules you put the accent on - If you consider that the rules state that you can't attempt to hide if you are currently seen (Tglassy is enforcing this one, while I think you just need to get behind something to deal with that). Whereas he's playing fast-and-loose (in my mind) about where the rules say as soon as you attack, you are then seen. (Again, I still assume that you just need to get out of line-of-sight again).
Tglassy's Batman example is a good one, though I think he's got an ability like the Wood Elf, who can use light obscurement (like rain!) to hide in. Batman uses "the cover of darkness" (obscurement) to do that.
The rules don’t say attacking comes out of hiding, but approaching to attack. Coming out of hiding to do anything cancels the hiding. A melee Rogue isn’t going to be able to get Advantage from hiding unless he’s invisible or able to hide while only lightly obscured. I think it’s rediculous to say “I run behind the pillar and hide, I should have Advantage on my next attack because I’m hidden.”
No. You’re about as hidden as my daughter who tries to hide behind the pillow when getting out of bed, hoping that since she cant see me, I can’t see her. Getting out of line of sight isn’t enough, though if you can move to a new area without being seen, I’d probably allow another hide Check, seeing as they think you’re somewhere else.
Man, this makes me want to make a Hal Elf Variant Rogue with Mask Of The Wild...
No. You’re about as hidden as my daughter who tries to hide behind the pillow when getting out of bed, hoping that since she cant see me, I can’t see her. Getting out of line of sight isn’t enough, though if you can move to a new area without being seen, I’d probably allow another hide Check, seeing as they think you’re somewhere else.
Man, this makes me want to make a Hal Elf Variant Rogue with Mask Of The Wild...
FitzTheRuke
Legend
A pillar is a bad example because at best it only gives you cover. Or in other words, you don't leave line-of-sight. And you're right that "getting out of line-of-sight" isn't enough. It's getting out of line-of-sight AND beating their passive perception with your stealth check. This is your Batman appearing out of nowhere, punching you in the face, and disappearing into the shadows again. Same thing with a rogue in the bushes.
The rules DO say attacking comes out of hiding (as you put it), though: Specifically they say: "If you are hidden — both unseen and unheard — when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."
The rules DO say attacking comes out of hiding (as you put it), though: Specifically they say: "If you are hidden — both unseen and unheard — when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."
The "Batman" rule applies if you have a special ability. What about a normal, low-level characters. You know fighters, clerics, and everyone else can hide (just not as well as rogues) and try to get in an advantaged attack during the opening round, could they try and hide on one turn and get an advan attack the next?
I think our problem here is doing combat actions before we were in combat. It will arise again I am sure so we need to get a rule in here to make sure we all are on the same page.
Hiding is an action in combat and should be easy to play as written.
Hiding outside of combat could be more like a condition you are in. You keep the condition if you move at 2/3 movement and stay out of line of sight. No rolling until someone is searching for you or you try to move past someone, and risk being spotted.
I think our problem here is doing combat actions before we were in combat. It will arise again I am sure so we need to get a rule in here to make sure we all are on the same page.
Hiding is an action in combat and should be easy to play as written.
Hiding outside of combat could be more like a condition you are in. You keep the condition if you move at 2/3 movement and stay out of line of sight. No rolling until someone is searching for you or you try to move past someone, and risk being spotted.
