Critical Role Echo Knight is Wildemount's Most Popular Subclass

D&D Beyond shared some stats about the things people are using from Explorers Guide to Wildemount. These are stats from 28 million characters.

 

[Todd Roybark]

It's a pretty dull argument in 5E, since the answer eventually boils down to "yeah, basically."

Quoted for truth.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

"Creatures and objects within the dome when you cast this spell can move through it freely." Which means you just need to stick your hand through the dome to release a spell and then pull your hand back,

I would dispute that interpretation. RAW there is no rule that says you can cast a spell with only a small part of your body. I would rule that if spells cannot pass through something, then the caster must be entirely on the side they wished to target when casting the spell, even if they hopped back inside immediately after releasing the spell. Thus they could be targeted by a held action.

 

[Iry]

The Echo Knight CAN be overpowered, the same way a sneaking rogue can snipe people and run away over and over. Which is to say, your party is probably not going to enjoy standing around while you do your thing for an hour of RL time. You can use the tactic now and then, but part of the balance is not being a disruptive player.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I was just going on to look at it before writing this post and discovered I can't access the character sheet on the App. What's that? There's a flipping free Pathfinder 2e character builder app that's a few months old that has that feature, and you're telling me the "premiere" D&D online resource can't do it?

Mate no hate on you right but this is what I mean re: making an effort to not understand!

The app isn't that kind of app. The app is just the books. That's it. You can search them really well so it may seem like more, but that's all it is.

For the character sheet, just go to the Beyond website on the browser of your phone (hopefully Chrome, but Safari seems to be fine too - I can't speak for weird Samsung browsers or anything, though it seems okay on my work S8's Samsung browser), open your character sheet on Beyond (it's really easy), and then you've got a character sheet on Beyond open and it works and so on.

That's it... You don't need a character sheet app.

 

[jgsugden]

I would dispute that interpretation. RAW there is no rule that says you can cast a spell with only a small part of your body. I would rule that if spells cannot pass through something, then the caster must be entirely on the side they wished to target when casting the spell, even if they hopped back inside immediately after releasing the spell. Thus they could be targeted by a held action.

Don't bother. His entire argument is contingent on this ... odd ... interpretation. He isn't going to back down and won't see the phrase "Spells and other magical effects can't extend through the dome or be cast through it" as intended to stop the spellcaster from casting spells while inside of it that impact others outside of it.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

And yes, an AOE effect will shut the dupe down - but how often are you really going to drop damage auras on a level 3 party?

Very often. Most fights.

Also, there isn’t a significant difference between balance at 3 and 5, and the only thing that could make the echo “overpowered” at level 3 is The very specific tactic you described, which isn’t that hard to counter. And if it goes uncountered, cool! The character gets to shine.

 

[Burnside]

Am now nearing completion of Lost Mine of Phandelver with an Echo Knight in the party and am more convinced than ever that the subclass's level 3 abilities are way too powerful for Tier One play.

Out of combat, inexhaustible line-of-site 15' teleportation trivializes many tier 1 exploration encounters. Also, the dupe is explicitly not a creature, so is not subject to many spell effects and traps where the wording specifically targets creatures. But it can still make attacks, which in certain situations makes it an invulnerable assailant/combatant against certain environmental hazards and enemies. It is also immune to all conditions, so it can't be grappled, restrained, stunned, poisoned, etc.

 

[Burnside]

* It is not a creature and can't make ability checks - no stealth, no acrobatics, no athletics, no perception, no initiative rolls. Only creatures make ability checks. If grappled, it stays grappled. It can't hide. It can't see or hear anything.

* If it is cut off from you, you have to spend a round dismissing it as a bonus before you can resummons it on the following round.

These are inaccurate. The ability description specifically states it's immune to all conditions, which would include grappled. It's not that it can't break a grapple; it's that it can't be grappled at all. What it DOES mean is that the real echo knight can escape any grapple automatically using a bonus action by switching with the dupe.

You can effectively dismiss and re-summon the echo in a single bonus action. The description of the ability states that "This echo is a magical, translucent, gray image of you that lasts until it is destroyed, until you dismiss it as a bonus action, until you manifest another echo, or until you’re incapacitated."

So you can dismiss an echo by summoning another echo in another location - as one bonus action.

 

[jgsugden]

These are inaccurate. The ability description specifically states it's immune to all conditions, which would include grappled. It's not that it can't break a grapple; it's that it can't be grappled at all.

You can effectively dismiss and re-summon the echo in a single bonus action. The description of the ability states that "This echo is a magical, translucent, gray image of you that lasts until it is destroyed, until you dismiss it as a bonus action, until you manifest another echo, or until you’re incapacitated."

So you can dismiss an echo by summoning another echo in another location - as one bonus action.

There are flaws in what I said, yes. I should have said:

* It is not a creature and can't make ability checks - no stealth, no acrobatics, no athletics, no perception, no initiative rolls. Only creatures make ability checks. It can't hide. It can't see or hear anything. [These are all correct].

* If it is cut off from you, you can resummon it as a bonus action. [Which wasn't really a point worth making - I should have said nothing there.]

...Out of combat, inexhaustible line-of-site 15' teleportation trivializes many tier 1 exploration encounters.

Which hazards did you face in LMoP that you bypassed with this Shadow that were not passable with a jump or other mundane travel?

Also, the dupe is explicitly not a creature, so is not subject to many spell effects and traps where the wording specifically targets creatures. But it can still make attacks, which in certain situations makes it an invulnerable assailant/combatant against certain environmental hazards and enemies.

Where was it an invulnerable assailant/combatant in LMoP for you?

Also, as it can't see, if you can see the target for it to attack the target without guessing location/disadvantage, you're generally within sight. You might be hidden, but that is not a perfect defense. And if you go down...

I tried it out as well. It was a solid, playable, evocative subclass - but not broken/way too powerful. The moon druid outclassed the Echo Night by a large degree.

 

[Burnside]

One recent example is the poison moss/spores in Wave Echo Cave that trigger when a "creature" moves within 5 feet of them. The dupe, not a creature, could pass them harmlessly, and the echo knight could then switch with the dupe to avoid them. This DID require the foreknowledge that the moss was poisonous, which the ranger had learned by casting Detect Poison and Disease. The echo knight used the dupe to "attack" the moss, which I ruled would trigger the spores (which I viewed as the only sane ruling to make), which the dupe was then immune to. The party then simply waited until the gas dispersed.

The dupe can move in any direction, including straight up into the air. There are things in LMoP that are 10'-15' feet high and need to be climbed up or down; this ability trivializes those.

Spellcasting enemies including Glasstaff, Mormesk the wraith, and Black Spider are all kitted out with spells and abilities that require a "creature" as a target, so they effectively had almost nothing they could use against the dupe. Glasstaff was particularly embarrassing in this regard.

I did have some fun with an evil rival party of adventurers that also included the brother of the echo knight who has the same abilities as the sister. The adventurers learned for themselves what a pain in the ass it can be to face somebody with those abilities. Also including an amusing dueling dupes exchange.