D&D 5E [+] Explain RPG theory without using jargon

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You seem to think I said "if you don't have Forge theory". You seem to think I asserted that the conversation started with The Forge. You seem to think I asserted that The Forge invented these tools. You seem to think I asserted that whatever RPG theory existed prior to The Forge was deficient. I asserted none of those things:

I've been pretty clear in other posts that I think GNS has serous flaws, and I have not once asserted that it was created out of nothing or that other theories do not exist or are invalid or worse than GNS. And yet I and many others find GNS/Forge theory a useful tool, among the many we have at our disposal.
So, if you're not talking specifically about Forge theory, at what point did game designers and players have the "no theory" and "few tools" you mentioned? I'm curious because reading about the actual history of the hobby, and its precursors, theory...detailed, involved, and robust theory sprang up before, during, and after the publication of all kinds of games. Again, the wargame precursors to RPGs have been around since 1812. Modern game theory, as we'd recognize it, basically started in 1928.

As a reminder, this tangent sprang from your claim here:
if you have no theory or model of this stuff, and the problem does occur, you have few tools with which to address it...

It also gives designers cognitive tools to create games that deliberately blend apparently conflicting agendas.
If you mean an individual's deficit or lack of grounding and/or education in theory or models, then sure. But relevant theory or models have existed for decades (or centuries) longer than anything recognizable as an RPG has been around.
 
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I respectfully disagree; OSR games are fundamentally about procedure (counting dungeon turns, wandering monster checks, resource management, etc.) and weighing risk based on what (incomplete) information you do have.

Dispensing with all of that proceduralism and focusing in on the creative "MacGyver" solutions, the feeling of being in a horrible dungeon, the dilemma of whether to drop gear for gold or risk a deeper delve? That's a hallmark of NuSR games, which are an outgrowth of OSR games but very much not doing the same thing.
I have never heard of this "NuSR" label. Most things I see of this nature still claim to be OSR, as noted by a linked essay upthread talking about how the label "OSR" has been used by multiple groups for distinct and rather different purposes, even though there are connections between them. That even the earliest OSR retroclones often made some tweaks, however minor, that were not strictly necessary for publication under the OGL indicates to me that procedure alone was not the only impulse.

Some of it is wildly misleading, but having read the primary texts, I don't have a problem understanding or applying it. In context.
Sadly, though for me very understandably, I think the biggest impediment to GNS is Mr. Edwards' style. I share a similar rambling, "must cover EVERY BIT OF CONTEXT" approach that can obscure when intending to clarify and blur when intending to focus very closely.

I'd say that what you describe Narrativism doing has everything to do with producing a narrative—dilemmas churn out story like crazy! But, it isn't the only way to produce a narrative! I agree that Narrativism was a terrible choice (as was "Story Now"), and I like your suggested name.
This is why I use the label "Values and Issues." It emphasizes that the point is to have Things That Matter To You And Can Be Threatened Or Uncertain, and then to Test That Caring In Problem Situations. This is a "test" more in the observation sense, like testing to see if it's raining, not testing to see if a student has learned the lesson, in that it's not about "how well do you perform" but rather what actually does matter to the player and their imagined person in the imagined world.

Most good stories involve this as a central element. Even "slice of life" and other narratives that do not center on "conflict" or "danger" in the usual sense still contain this kind of experience, which is why I refer to things like "protagonism" or "main-character-ness." Being the main character of a story, even in a slice of life way, almost always means having things you care about that you have to work toward or put in effort to protect.

Simulationism can very much be concerned with game-worlds being simulations of physics and such, but it can also be about simulating all sorts of other things—not just genre. If the focus of play is on being true to whatever is important to the participants, and not going against that in order to make things go one's out-of-character way, that's shows a priority on Simulationism. I don't think this is a good name either, but "genre emulationism" also doesn't capture it.
Which is why I forked the two apart. Yes, there are some similarities. There are also differences. You could just as easily have done a three-way split between "Dilemmism," "Proceduralism" (Gamism + Process Sim), and "Thematicism" (Genre Sim on its own), or between "Theatricism" (Narrativism + Genre Sim), Gamism, and "Verisimilitude" (Process Sim on its own). I find the dogged insistence on keeping Genre and Process in the same bucket minimally valuable and extremely prone to inducing confusion and negative reactions.

Gamism doesn't need rules to be tight, predicatable, or physics-like. It needs rules to be masterable, which is helped by pure predictability but doesn't require it. Some Gamist motivations include mastering a particularly obscure, changing, or contradictory systems! Physics-like simulations, of course, belong under Simulationism, but many Gamist rules are at least grounded in such (or other subtypes of Simulationism, such as points that one can pay to generate setting-/archetype-/genre-appropriate events or actions). I don't have a problem with the name "Gamism", myself.
I'm not sure I buy the "contradictory" part. Obscurity may or may not be a virtue, but outright contradictory rules lead to systems with serious problems. You see this in 3.x game discussion; many feel a strong need to set some ground rules (like "no NI," meaning nigh-infinite loops or unrestricted power enhancement). Or stuff outside the TTRPG world, like Skyrim allowing the player to bootstrap Alchemy and Enchanting mutually (potions that increase your Enchanting skill to make more powerful enchantments that increase your Alchemy skill so you can make stronger potions that increase your Enchanting skill, an NI loop that can literally break the game with integer overflow.) Such things break the feeling of "mastery" because, specifically by being contradictory or overly exploitable, they ruin any possible feeling of challenge. When you know literally anyone can beat the game with an hour grinding on some stupid trivially-easy exploit, the fact that you played 80 hours to get there the "normal" way becomes rather less valuable.

As for "verisimulitudinous enough", that applies to all three—without some nonzero amount of each, we don't even have a role-playing game.
Right. Hence why I have avoided strident claims of incompatibility (though people tell me GNS is inaccurately understood to make strident claims of incompatibility...which does not jive with what things I ha e read from Edwards but, as I said, I peaced out of that Convo after like the fourth time something I thought was extremely clear from the things I had read turned out to apparently be completely wrong.)

People care about there being enough of various things. Hence, even for someone who values Score and Achievement, there can be a point where a very small gain in greater evaluative objectivity or meritorious skillful play ceases to be worth making more sacrifices to how naturalistic the world is or how well the experience captures the idea of being a fantastical "hero" character. That doesn't mean the game isn't focused on a particular answer to the question "what are roleplaying games made for?" It just means that these things exist in a space, and utter absolutes are uncommon.

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On the topic of "X could happen, but I won't do that because it would upset the players," we can identify some characteristics here:
1. It is something arising from the coordinating player ("Dungeon Master" or "Game Master"), not from the other players. In GNS, this makes it pretty much axiomatically not Narrative.
2. It has little if anything to do with challenge, in the sense of players striving to do something difficult and having both success and failure as possibilities. Instead, it is about curating a pleasant experience for the players. This is not nearly as hard a distinction as the former, but it pretty clearly pushes this out of the Gamist space, at least in most cases. (If it had been structured as "it would be unfair to have X happen," that would be much more plausibly Gamist, so I don't think we can totally exclude the possibility...but as written it doesn't look Gamist to me.)
3. This leaves the question of whether it is Process Sim or Genre Sim, and I personally think the answer is obvious here. If purity of "the world exists and proceeds as it proceeds, affected by the choices players make" were paramount, then the players would be expected to take their licking and like it. The world can be a harsh place; bad things happen to undeserving people, and an absolute commitment to verisimilitude is going to include some of that. (Again, as noted, most people are not THAT absolute, but the overall pattern stands.) So, by process of elimination, this is Genre Sim, or as I would put it, Conceit and Emulation. In this case, part of the Emulation process (as I have repeatedly said) is producing a satisfying exploration of the Conceit(s) being focused upon. This means attention paid to "fun for its own sake," as opposed to "fun as a byproduct of activity presumed to be enjoyable," is very much a Conceit and Emulation consideration.

Someone writing a mystery novel that is absolutely perfect in its execution of the mystery but painfully dull to read will have missed the mark compared to someone else who has written a sloppy, poorly-evidenced mystery that is an absolute joy. Likewise with film (many "Oscar Bait" films are incredibly tedious to watch unless you're a massive film snob), music (audiophiles love highly technical works, but most artists go for compelling pieces over absolute perfection of technique), etc. This is not to say that excellence in technique is incompatible with broad appeal; the Mona Lisa is a good example of enduring mass appeal and also incredibly strong artistic technique.

So: "I won't do that because it would cause a TPK, and this would upset my players" sounds like (in GNS terms) a Simulationist approach, with the desire of simulating (presumably) scrappy heroes beating the odds or something similar. If that requires some sleight of hand and deception on the part of the controlling player to ensure the party avoids such a cruel fate, so be it.
 

Sorry, somehow I missed this earlier.
Isn't that precisely a situation where you have to choose one over the other, though? This matches pretty well with my earlier example about the samurai faced with saving an innocent or losing his cool sword powers (merely for the sake of having them to kick butt). To me, "winning moves" speaks to a GNS Gamist agenda, and what your character "would do" to either a GNS Narrativist or GNS (High Concept) Simuilationist agenda (need more info to distinguish...which appears to be coming up!). Your decision hinges on which of the two is most important to you—in that moment. It can change from dilemma to dilemma, but each dilemma must be resolved one way or the other.
Ok, so you’ve just used all three agendas, and both forms of the one that might be too broad, to describe the gameplay experience I’m seeking. Is it any wonder I don’t find the theory terribly resonant?
These all sound like GNS Narrativist concerns, where you have to decide based on the fictional consequences which of your character's conflicting goals/ideals you can honor in a given moment.
But it isn’t just based on the fictional consequences, it’s also the mechanical consequences. It has to be, otherwise it isn’t really a meaningful decision. If I’m just choosing which way I want my character’s story to go, I haven’t really learned anything. It’s only when the consequences are really felt that the decision has weight. I cannot separate the gamism from the natrativism here; the gameplay procedures give weight to the decisions I make for the character.
Your experience seems coherent, in the GNS sense. Everything is framed in Narrativist terms.
And earlier Ovinomancer said my gameplay priorities seemed like pure similationism. Something is amiss.
To give a possible example of different GNS agendas in contrast—keeping in mind that I myself am not 100% convinced agendas are necessarily exclusive, even in the moment—what if you cared greatly about getting the most XP possible from the encounter (prototypically Gamist), but that solution to the situation would go against your idea of who your character is (Narrativist or Simulationist, depending)?
That’s exactly the point though! The conflict between those things is my agenda. I want to have to choose between the XP award and my character’s ideals, because that reveals whether the character truly lives up to those ideals when it counts. I don’t just want to choose whether my character follows their heart or gives into greed from a detached perspective, I want to feel that dilemma, which means the reward I have to sacrifice to uphold those ideals needs to affect me!
Ah, but what if what your character would really do does happen to net you the most XP possible? Then we have supposedly incoherent agendas in alignment! Win, win! :)
And, sure, maybe sometimes that’s the case. That can feel rewarding, when the character’s wants and needs and the gameplay rewards are aligned. A healthy mix of dilemma and reward, catharsis and abnegation keeps the game dynamic and engaging.
But the theory isn't actually about that, it's about, when the agendas don't happen to align—which is probably more often the case—which one determines your decision?
I disagree that it’s more often the case, is the thing. Most of the time, challenging gameplay supports a desire for character exploration, and a sense of internal consistency supports the decision-making process, at least for me.
 

Players in exploration focused games are not doing something all that dissimilar from going through escape rooms. I personally consider that a form of puzzle solving. We have to leave room in discussion for contextual meaning. Otherwise we have to create even more jargon to clarify our intent.
I would agree, the challenge of exploration based play is very much akin to puzzle solving. Navigating the space (be it a dungeon, or a hex map, or whatever) can be a puzzle itself, and generally must also be juggled alongside a resource management puzzle. In that sense, exploration play is, as I understand it, Gamist. Of course, making the space to be navigated feel believable is also often of significant concern, which as I understand it, is Simulationist. And if, like me, you use these challenges as a tool for exploring character, it’s also Narrativist.
 


Some things are just due practicality and social contract. "I don't want my friends be upset" is probably just that, though in theory we might be able to dig deeper. But not everything has a reason that can be traced back to gaming preferences. Like the most common reason for "don't split the party for long periods of time" or " try to avoid PvP of the magnitude which would mean the characters no longer will work together" is not any desire for particular type of story, let alone about challenge or in-character issues. It simply is practical consideration about how to spend the often limited gaming time, and thus trying to avoid situations where the GM basically runs several solo games whilst the other people just sit there waiting their turn doing nothing.
 

So, if you're not talking specifically about Forge theory, at what point did game designers and players have the "no theory" and "few tools" you mentioned?
You seem to think I asserted that specific individuals at specific times—or even that all game designers and players, ever—had no theory. I put forth a hypothetical: "if you have no theory or model of this stuff...."

I'm curious because reading about the actual history of the hobby, and its precursors, theory...detailed, involved, and robust theory sprang up before, during, and after the publication of all kinds of games. Again, the wargame precursors to RPGs have been around since 1812. Modern game theory, as we'd recognize it, basically started in 1928.

As a reminder, this tangent sprang from your claim here:

If you mean an individual's deficit or lack of grounding and/or education in theory or models, then sure. But relevant theory or models have existed for decades (or centuries) longer than anything recognizable as an RPG has been around.
You seem to think I asserted that theories and models haven't existed. In any case, yes: I mean some hypothetical individual. That's why I used "if"—to introduce a hypothetical. It's a pretty standard thing to do in English.
 

I've been meaning to ask, but what is a (+) thread? I haven't been able to figure it out.

In light of the tone and aggressive, incredulous oriented challenge of the first post.

In light of post 2 which is a passive-aggressive hit-piece without the courtesy of @-ing the people being public attacked (note…not reported!).

In light of the defanging of technical vocabulary which is fundamentally useful for creating shorthand for complex, nuanced concepts (eg how about a Kicker instead of A player authored, conflict-charged situation that kicks off and propels play whereby the GM is obliged to follow the players lead and play the opposition to the player’s espoused goals of their authored situation) which will later be weaponized to decry “the incoherencies, the lack of explanatory power/clarity, and lack of consensus of the critical lens of the theory.”

In light of the overwhelming abundance of negativity that has gone pretty much only one way in this thread but hasn’t been reined in…

What do you think the (+) is for in this thread JohnLloyd1 of the internet?
 

Some things are just due practicality and social contract. "I don't want my friends be upset" is probably just that, though in theory we might be able to dig deeper. But not everything has a reason that can be traced back to gaming preferences. Like the most common reason for "don't split the party for long periods of time" or " try to avoid PvP of the magnitude which would mean the characters no longer will work together" is not any desire for particular type of story, let alone about challenge or in-character issues. It simply is practical consideration about how to spend the often limited gaming time, and thus trying to avoid situations where the GM basically runs several solo games whilst the other people just sit there waiting their turn doing nothing.
Okay.

Why does practicality matter? What end does this practicality serve? In its usage guide for the term, Dictionary.com says: "Practical suggests the ability to adopt means to an end or to turn what is at hand to account: to adopt practical measures for settling problems." So, what are the ends pursued by these three "practical considerations"?

"I don't want my friends to be upset" would seem to have "ensuring my friends are happy, or at least not unhappy" as its end. As stated above, this seems to be a "Genre Sim" (or, as I put it, "Conceit and Emulation") end.

"Don't split the party for long periods of time" would seem to have "improve the party's chance of success (often specifically success at surviving)" as its end. This can vary in precisely why that end is relevant, e.g. a character could have mother-hen type Values and thus face an Issue when some motive encourages the party to separate, but in general, I find that this end is almost always Gamist in nature; "don't split the party!" is a maxim touted completely out of character in most cases, a "standard operating procedure" rather than an ethos or an in-world proposition (though after it is posed out of character, a player may choose to insert it in-character as well.)

"Try to avoid excessive PVP" seems to resemble the first point. Too much PVP results in players having a bad time. What qualifies as "too much" depends on the kind of experience the players wish to have, but in each case the concern is fun for its own sake (that is, "don't permit too much PVP, because it won't be fun.") Some Conceits don't admit any PVP at all, e.g. Star Trek generally disallowed internal strife between the crew until Gene Roddenberry was no longer able to control the story. Others welcome quite a lot, e.g. early D&D with Sir Fang the vampire getting taken down by the intentionally Van Helsing-like Cleric (and in the process unintentionally laying down an orthodoxy of how a certain archetype Should Be Made No Matter What). Where one falls on that will depend on the specific Conceit one is pursuing, but whether or not (and if so, much) PVP is permitted in the first place seems pretty clearly in this camp.

(This, incidentally, is another great reason why I separate "Genre Sim" from "Process Sim." Process Sim doesn't give a rat's gluteals about whether or not PVP occurs, just that if it does it follows naturalistic reasoning. Genre Sim, on the other hand, is very much concerned about it. My "Values and Issues" category is ambivalent about PVP, it all depends on  why the PVP is happening. Conversely, "Score and Achievement" is almost always going to fall cleanly on one side or the other: either no PVP because this is a cooperative game guys and internal strife will screw the team over, or totally open to PVP because this is at least in part a competitive game, gimme your best shot.)
 

You seem to think I asserted that specific individuals at specific times—or even that all game designers and players, ever—had no theory. I put forth a hypothetical: "if you have no theory or model of this stuff...."

You seem to think I asserted that theories and models haven't existed. In any case, yes: I mean some hypothetical individual. That's why I used "if"—to introduce a hypothetical. It's a pretty standard thing to do in English.
If your hypothetical individual chooses to not avail themselves of theory, it’s their choice. As I said in the post you quoted. Also odd that you felt the need to give me a lesson about English and hypotheticals when I used that exact construction in the quote of mine you included with your post. Either way, tschüss.
 

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