D&D 5E Fighters and Feats, Oh the Humanity!

[Andor]

I was thinking about the whole "Feats are optional" thing. Do you have too many stat points without feats to spend them on?

Let's start with a baseline stat array human fighter. Obviously you can't use the variant without feats so:

Statline + Human =
Str 15 + 1` = 16
Dex 13 + 1` = 14
Con 14 + 1` = 15
Int 8 + 1` = 9
Wis 12 + 1` = 13
Chr 10 + 1` = 11

Now lets level him up. Fighters get stat advances at 4,6,8,12,14,16 and 19.

4th: +2 Str
6th: +2 Str (Capped at 20)
8th: +1 Con, +1 Wis
12th: +2 Con
14th: +2 Con (Capped at 20)
16th: +2 Dex
19th: +2 Dex

Final Stat line at 19th level:
Str 20
Dex 18
Con 20
Int 9
Wis 14
Chr 11

Hmm... Well, you're pretty much Captain America, but you haven't exactly run out of things to spend your stat points on. I think that moots my concern about what to do without feats.
Although...

Lets try it again with a Mountain Dwarf.
Statline:
Str 17
Dex 13
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 12
Chr 10

4th: +1Str, +1 Dex
6th +2 Str (Capped at 20)
8th: +2 Con
12th: +2 Con (Capped at 20)
14th: +2 Dex
16th: +2 Dex
19th: +2 Dex (Capped at 20)

Final Stats
Str 20
Dex 20
Con 20
Int 8
Wis 12
Chr 10

He actually does run out his physical stats, at the price of being 1 point less perceptive.

I have to say, that does kind of make me agree that the default Human racial benny sucks compared to the variant. Which, come to think of it is as old school as it gets. Play 5e in OSR mode without feats and no one will play humans, just like in the old days. Play in modern mode with feats and everyone will play humans just like in 3e. Mission of inclusivness acomplished!

 

[Jack Daniel]

Play 5e in OSR mode without feats and no munchkins will play humans, just like in the old days. Play in modern mode with feats and every munchkin will play humans just like in 3e. Mission of inclusivness acomplished!

FTFY.

 

[KarinsDad]

I have to say, that does kind of make me agree that the default Human racial benny sucks compared to the variant. Which, come to think of it is as old school as it gets. Play 5e in OSR mode without feats and no one will play humans, just like in the old days. Play in modern mode with feats and everyone will play humans just like in 3e. Mission of inclusivness acomplished!

We have 6 PCs at first level:

Dwarf Cleric
Gnome Ranger
Halfling Bard
Half Elf Rogue
Human Variant Fighter (for the feat)
Human Normal Cleric (for the bonus stats)

At the moment, the Ranger is planning on multiclassing Ranger and Wizard (possibly more or less equally), the Rogue is planning on multiclassing Rogue and Monk, the Fighter is planning on multiclassing one level of Barbarian, and the Human Cleric is planning on one level of Cleric and the rest Wizard.

The Dwarven Cleric and the Halfling Bard are not currently planning on multiclassing.

So out of 6 players, only one went human for the feat. Small sample set, but it does not match your conclusion.


There are pros and cons all over the racial abilities. I think it more depends on what a player wants to play. Feats are awesome, but then again with the right set of PCs, so is Darkvision.

 

[TwoSix]

If you're using the human +1 to all 6 variant, why would use an array with 4 even scores? We should be point-buying to get 5 odd scores.

Let's try:

Str 15 +1 = 16
Dex 13 + 1 = 14
Con 15 + 1 = 16
Int 8 + 1 = 9
Wis 11 +1 = 12
Cha 9 + 1 = 10

Leveling up:
4th: +2 Str
6th: +2 Str (Capped at 20)
8th: +2 Con
12th: +2 Con (Capped at 20)
14th: +2 Dex
16th: +2 Dex
19th: +2 Dex (Capped at 20)

So:

Str 20
Dex 20
Con 20
Int 9
Wis 12
Cha 10

Pretty much identical to the M. Dwarf, without the cool bonuses. Sigh, yea, that's not so good.

Let's really play to the human's strength and go as well-rounded as possible.

Str 13 + 1 = 14
Dex 13 + 1 = 14
Con 13 + 1 = 14
Int 10 + 1 = 11
Wis 13 + 1 = 14
Cha 13 + 1 = 14

Then we level:

4th: +2 Str
6th: +2 Str
8th: +2 Str (Capped at 20)
12th: +2 Con
14th: +2 Con
16th: +2 Con (Capped at 20)
19th: +2 Dex

Final totals:
Str 20
Dex 16
Con 20
Int 11
Wis 14
Cha 14

So, at the cost of a little Dex, we can get a really well rounded character. Of course, he's behind on his hit points and attack bonus for a lot of the game.

Yea, +1 for humans does need a little something extra.

 

[Agamon]

High dex and str seems odd. I think I'd rather raise wis or cha, depending on the concept.

 

[Dausuul]

Why would you pump both Dex and Str? Heavy armor means you're not gaining any AC benefit and you get disadvantage on the best Dex skill in the game. And thanks to throwing weapons, you don't need Dex for ranged attacks any more.

I'd go for Wis ahead of Dex with a heavy fighter, for Perception/Insight and because Wis saves are much more important than Dex saves for a character with lots of hit points.

 

[KarinsDad]

Why would you pump both Dex and Str?

It can also depend on campaign.

Some DMs enforce "not sleeping in armor" rules, especially in safer places like towns and villages.

Also, hit points are a fighters bread and butter. A slightly inferior wisdom might result in an additional missed save once in a while, but the fighter misses most of those saves anyway. He's out for a round or two and then right back into combat (since many wis saves get a save every turn). But missing a Dex save might mean a lot more damage (like a Fireball).

I could definitely see players who know that they will miss Wis saves, so making it +1 or +2 better is not as important as making Dex saves as often as possible. The downside for a failed Dex save tends to have more longer term consequences (like using up healing).


And for group stealth checks (which could be fairly important in 5E from my experience with the Starter Set), having a high Dex plus Stealth will allow even an armored fighter with disadvantage to make his stealth rolls on a semi-regular basis (e.g. 1 time in 3 in lower levels and because of proficiency, maybe a higher percentage at higher level).

 

[edhel]

I have to say, that does kind of make me agree that the default Human racial benny sucks compared to the variant. Which, come to think of it is as old school as it gets. Play 5e in OSR mode without feats and no one will play humans, just like in the old days. Play in modern mode with feats and everyone will play humans just like in 3e. Mission of inclusivness acomplished!

If you played 5e in "OSR mode", you wouldn't use point buy in the first place. You are just complaining about arbitrary parameters you set. You could easily utilize the +1 to all if you started with different point buy array of your choosing.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I was thinking about the whole "Feats are optional" thing. Do you have too many stat points without feats to spend them on?

With feats, it's a carefully balanced game where you need to always be wary about which choices you make because it really matters whether you pick up +2 to your most important stat or gain some cool tricks that make you situationally more effective.

Without feats, you will obviously max out your main stat first, and then you have complete freedom to improve any other score you feel like because none of it's going to have a major impact on anything vital. You might actually choose to play a smart fighter or a charismatic fighter, because you're not giving up anything very important to do it.

 

[KarinsDad]

Without feats, you will obviously max out your main stat first, and then you have complete freedom to improve any other score you feel like because none of it's going to have a major impact on anything vital. You might actually choose to play a smart fighter or a charismatic fighter, because you're not giving up anything very important to do it.

Well, you could be. Without proficiency, 2 of the 3 Con, Dex, Wis saves might be quite low at high level. How this affects play is still TBD. There might be a general push to bump up Con, Dex, and/or Wis in a no feats game.