Fighters vs. Spellcasters (a case for fighters.)

[N'raac]

Where I can't fairly answer whether 4e solves it (or whether the solution breeds other problems that are lesser or greater). My 3.5 experience moved to Pathfinder without much use of the later books, so ToB isn't an area I can comment on either.

No doubt different players, and different tables, find different things exciting. My group got excited the other day when the invoker/wizard took a crit for 77 hp of damage, so there is no doubt that arithmetic can generate tension and emotion in the play of the game.

But I've personally never had the same sort of reaction to an encumbrance calculation.

What is the penalty a character in AD&D suffers from having a 7 INT? However that is adjudicated, it's not via the arguably tedious bookkeeping that encumbrance involves.

The tedious computation of skill points and much more tedious whines when the game drifts beyond combat because the character isn't good for anything else, so the player finds extended forays into such challenges tedious?

I don't re-add encumbrance every time I shoot an arrow, but keeping my gear list updated with the weights of the various items I generally carry really isn't that big a deal. It certainly doesn't leave me bored for 2 hours of interaction/exploration based play.

It's not a particular well-defined period of time - especially when you get into corner cases like cloning, lichdom and the like.

Or even compare a human and elven wizard!

In any event, "indefinite" is not the word used:

If you assign some open-ended task that the creature cannot complete though its own actions the spell remains in effect for a maximum of one day per caster level​

Precisely!​

"Guard me from all harm" is an open-ended task, in my view. It seems obvious to me that it triggers the 1 day/level duration. In fact, I would have thought it's a paradigm of the sorts of tasks that were meant to trigger that restriction.

I agree with your comments (although a devil would make mincemeat of the intent of that bargain, while staying true to the RAW it imposes, wouldn't you agree)?

 

[N'raac]

How would he find the village?


He could use Locate Creature to locate the creature.

Sure - how does he first get within 400' + 40' per level of the specific tribe (or one of them) that venerates the dragon? Let's ignore the running water restriction, at least!

A lizardfolk tribe consists of 30-60 members, plus 2 lieutenants of 3rd-6th level and 1 leader of 4th-10th level. I would consider such an action inadvisable.

30-60 members with 11 hp each and a +0 to +2 attack bonus - kill the leaders first!

Technology is everywhere, but people who can use it competently are uncommon, and those who understand how it work, even more so. (Can you tell me off the top of your head how a semiconductor works, and the physical principals behind it?)

That strikes me as the equivalent of a wizard with good knowledge arcana. All I need to know is "Rope trick puts them up high, in an invisible portal", which doesn't seem too far off "turn key in ignition, press gas, car go"

A 10th level wizard can teleport an entire 4 man party. The only reason they would be unable to teleport out is if they had to rescue a princess or capture some creature which would increase the number of creatures in the party.

Or anyone has an animal companion, mount, etc. (the caster's familiar being OK due to share spell), and assuming the Polymorph wore off, since large creatures count extra.

Even then, you could have the Rogue UMD a scroll of Teleport and split the party. I would imagine the party teleporting out is very reasonable as they have every reason to want to get out as quickly as possible.

With or without going through the loot? Even with "carrying gear", you need to load it (maybe sort out the good stuff from that huge pile of copper and silver too).

Readied action to cast Solid Fog during the Dragon's turn.

Doesn't that leave him a move action? If you cast after he takes his full action, it's not his turn and he's stopped moving.

Assuming we ban all broken spells, we can still get characters like my sorcerer in Tomb of Horrors who was able to trivialize several traps, avoid deadly enemies, etc using utility spells.

Being able to resolve some encounters with spells seems like a good thing - so long as the skills of the other party members can similarly resolve other encounters. Were all your teammates useless, or just the fighter?

I would say that the game ToH was written for has the problem that Fighters can't contribute outside of combat. ToH itself is badly designed because only specific characters will contribute in it, combat is far too lethal, puzzles are sometimes just arbitrary, etc.

I agree that fighters should have the ability to contribute outside of combat. That said, I have seen few scenarios that don't feature combat as a viable solution to at least some challenges. It does seem like successive iterations have tried to let everyone contribute in combat, but not done much to allow everyone to contribute out of combat, and that I agree should be addressed.

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

Give me the quote and page reference that says “All sorcerers are descended from dragons. This is an official change to the rules, not an optional rule”. Then I will consider that all sorcerers gain their powers from a draconic lineage. Failing that, please follow your own demands and stick to RAW.

You're ing joking, right? How hilarious is it you can't even keep your own demands straight.

I’d note autodidacts learn through research and tend to consult experts, which presupposes people to write those research materials and be consulted.

Faraday. Nice try, though.

If I had unlimited time, I’d ask you to start listing your questions and checking the rolls for one word answers. If the wizard had unlimited time, he might actually map out the lair. Whether they finish before the dragon moves on or he or the wizard expires from old age (that includes gray elves, for the record) is a better question. I don’t have unlimited time, so I guess we will never know (and both believe we already know), but que sera.

How about "Hey Mr. God dude, is the dragon's cave in X grid on this map?"

How about show me the spell that lets you scry on an area you currently lack any familiarity with for a one hour period, getting more than a 10’ radius or so.

How about blowing six castings of CoP? Or fewer with some Scrying thrown in there?

I think you have managed to miss what I actually don’t care about. And I’m not really going for “nice”.

No, you do appear to be going for "making a fool of yourself."

No, the actual checks set out in the rules.

Yep. And debuffs are everywhere. But it's not like I was expecting you to actually read the spells I was talking about.

First, the duration of the Planar Binding spells is instantaneous. Extend Spell does not affect spells of instantaneous duration.

Cute, but you need to reread Magic Circle.

To caster levels, I believe you previously set out that you could manage about +10 caster levels (at the cost of 10 points’ CON damage, among other issues). Show me how you get the Caster Level of 365 required for a year’s service and I’ll toss in Feb 2 for free in leap years.

How about I don't need to. It takes four days for all my debuffs to kick in.

Imagine it breaking free after you voluntarily inflicted 10 CON damage on yourself for +5 caster levels…

You keep on making it sound like a Charisma 1 creature with penalties on all rolls has a chance off making the check.

Not seeing any penalties there. Not really sure you can torture it through that magic circle, either.

What part of "Curse" and "geas" is so complicated?

To repeat:

Or are you giving the creature permission to complete your lifetime through its own actions? If it wins, you’re dead. If you win, it goes home. Not seeing a big risk to the Devil. Plus, it still gets its promised reward, whatever that may have been

Nope. Will you ever actually read anything?

It can serve you for the rest of your days and then, though its own actions, it can go home. It has to be both open-ended and impossible.

So why is Book of the Dragon to be accepted and BoVD rejected? Either splatbooks are rules or they aren’t.

I can't decide whether I want to mock you or get this post over with.

Another brilliant retort clearly demonstrating the quality of your position. Again, don’t stop on my account!

...You've not actually rebutted anything I've said. I accept your concession.

"Guard me from all harm" is an open-ended task, in my view. It seems obvious to me that it triggers the 1 day/level duration. In fact, I would have thought it's a paradigm of the sorts of tasks that were meant to trigger that restriction.

It's an open-ended task, but one it can complete. It's stuck with that one.

Or even compare a human and elven wizard!

No, because the wizard is either a human or an elf. Nothing's complicated about that.

 

[Savage Wombat]

... and if neither the facts or the law are on your side, pound on the table.

 

[Dandu]

Sure - how does he first get within 400' + 40' per level of the specific tribe (or one of them) that venerates the dragon? Let's ignore the running water restriction, at least!

Now, I would argue that this can be done with Contact Other Plane and taking 10. If you do not accept this tactic, I would say that rather Orwellian spell Prying Eyes could be used to scout out the area.

The spell creates 1d4+10 eyes at CL 10. These can go up to one mile from the caster. So the caster starts around the edge of the swamp and casts the spell, then tells the eyes to fan out into the swamp for one mile and then return to him. As they travel at a speed of thirty feet per round, it will take them 176 rounds to travel the 5280 feet in a mile. Total travel time to and back will be 352 rounds. Each round is 6 seconds, so that is 2112 seconds. There are sixty seconds in a minute, so that is 35.2 minutes. It takes one round for the eye to relate the information gathered, so that's another minute or so spend learning what the eyes saw. Let's say scouting out a one mile radius then takes about 37 minutes all told.

The spell lasts for ten hours per casting.

30-60 members with 11 hp each and a +0 to +2 attack bonus - kill the leaders first!

One level 10 Fighter vs one level 10 lizardfolk Fighter plus his lieutenants and entire tribe seems like a losing proposition. As mighty as a Fighter is, I suspect that a sustained barrage of arrows would be rather troublesome.

That strikes me as the equivalent of a wizard with good knowledge arcana. All I need to know is "Rope trick puts them up high, in an invisible portal", which doesn't seem too far off "turn key in ignition, press gas, car go"

You should probably also shift the gears. Cars don't go very far if set in park.

Or anyone has an animal companion, mount, etc. (the caster's familiar being OK due to share spell), and assuming the Polymorph wore off, since large creatures count extra.

If the party could not be teleported in, it would naturally not try to teleport out. Though the problem of having animal companions and mounts could possibly be solved by putting them in bags of holding for a few rounds.

With or without going through the loot? Even with "carrying gear", you need to load it (maybe sort out the good stuff from that huge pile of copper and silver too).

Well, if the dragon's waiting a few hours to ambush them, I imagine they could make off with some valuable things.

Doesn't that leave him a move action? If you cast after he takes his full action, it's not his turn and he's stopped moving.

Readied action to cast the spell after the dragon has used his first move action on a double move, or until he has used his standard action to do something (breathe fire?) and is left with only a move action.

Basically, wait until he is moving and has to keep moving, then prevent him from continuing to move when he has no more actions that would allow him to recover.

Being able to resolve some encounters with spells seems like a good thing - so long as the skills of the other party members can similarly resolve other encounters. Were all your teammates useless, or just the fighter?

Well, the Cleric was not very useful, but mainly because her spells were geared towards healing people and we decided, as a group, to avoid getting injured as much as possible. However, had we been injured and somehow avoided dying, I am sure she would have been very useful.

 

[pemerton]

It's an open-ended task, but one it can complete. It's stuck with that one.

I don't agree that it's a task the creature can complete. The passage in question is "If you assign some open-ended task that the creature cannot complete though its own actions the spell remains in effect for a maximum of one day per caster level". "Protect me from harm" is not a task that the creature can render complete simply through its own actions - it depends crucially on the actions of others. I see an analogy (loose, but not hopeless) with the categories of contract which do and do not permit of specific performance, because they are or are not capable of final performance on both sides once and for all. Contracts of employment, which are not capable of final performance once and for all but rather require ongoing, open-ended performance by the employee are the paradigm of non-specifically enforcable contracts. Similarly, telling a creatures to "protect me from harm" or "to be best buddies with my nephew" or "to make so-and-so happy for the rest of her days" all strike me as open-ended tasks that the creature cannot complete through its own actions.

 

[delericho]

I like the idea of routine tasks being predictable and taking extra time providing some bonus. However, it seems like better defining what a “distraction” is, and/or what you can and can’t take 10/20 on, is the answer.

See, I used to think like this. I especially objected to the argument against allowing rerolls, on the grounds that many situations should of course allow them.

But...

I've gradually come to the conclusion that such things are more or less a waste of time. If the task truly is routine, why call for a roll at all - why not just say "okay, you pick the lock"? Likewise, if time is not a factor (such that take-20 is possible), then again, where's the tension on a roll - "you take your time, look around thoroughly, and find..."

Better, IMO, just to let the routine cases (or those that are just a matter of time) slide, and instead ask for a roll in those cases, and only those cases, where there's some real tension inherent in the roll. (Of course, I don't know how that, and eliminating rerolls, would alter how the game plays out.)

As always, YMMV. And, indeed, it seems that it does.

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

I don't agree that it's a task the creature can complete. The passage in question is "If you assign some open-ended task that the creature cannot complete though its own actions the spell remains in effect for a maximum of one day per caster level". "Protect me from harm" is not a task that the creature can render complete simply through its own actions - it depends crucially on the actions of others.

That applies to all actions, though. The tast "Clean the basement" is dependent on numerous other things, including a lack of murder-hobos breaking in or pissed-off dragons destroying my wizard citadel. If the end result is doable by the minion, then I believe it qualifies.

On the other hand, it really is somewhat refreshing having a disagreement where there is actually room for disagreement. I must say, it is quite the nice change of pace.

 

[N'raac]

How about "Hey Mr. God dude, is the dragon's cave in X grid on this map?"

88% shot at the right answer, 2% he tells you he doesn’t know, 10% chance he lies deliberately or accidentally (the latter 1% being subject to the specific deity’s personality). Cross your fingers. So how big are your grid squares, and how many castings do you plan on taking. BTW, I’m not giving you “Take 10” on that INT roll.

How about blowing six castings of CoP? Or fewer with some Scrying thrown in there?

I’ll give you one question from CoP: “Can I study an area by asking you questions with one word answers about it?” “No” (or 88% likely “No”, anyway, although the prospect of him not knowing the answer really draws the INT of the deity you contacted into question…).

Yep. And debuffs are everywhere.

The specific debuffs need a good duration, considering it gets to try its rolls daily at its discretion.

Cute, but you need to reread Magic Circle.

“for a maximum of 24 hours per caster level” is not “a duration of 24 hours per caster level”. It is a maximum. Extend could extend the 10 minute per level duration, but that’s not the variant casting.

How about I don't need to. It takes four days for all my debuffs to kick in.
You keep on making it sound like a Charisma 1 creature with penalties on all rolls has a chance off making the check.
What part of "Curse" and "geas" is so complicated?

Nothing whatsoever, Mr. HyperIntelligent Wizard. Specifically:

• Curse is touch range – you just violated the Magic Circle.
• Geas causes damage, so I assume you are using Lesser Geas, which causes ability damage. And works only on creatures of 7 or fewer hit dice.
• Both remain in effect, so I assume you will be casting Break Enchantment assuming it accepts your demands.

Nope. Will you ever actually read anything?

Like the actual spell descriptions?

It can serve you for the rest of your days and then, though its own actions, it can go home. It has to be both open-ended and impossible.

No, it has to be “some open-ended task that the creature cannot complete though its own actions”. Unless it can reach the end of your days through its own actions, you get 1 day/level.

It's an open-ended task, but one it can complete. It's stuck with that one.

And I just can’t IMAGINE how “Guard me from all harm” could be misinterpreted by an intelligent devious lower planar creature to frustrate your goals…

In any case, I’m with pemerton on this one

”Protect me from harm" is not a task that the creature can render complete simply through its own actions - it depends crucially on the actions of others. I see an analogy (loose, but not hopeless) with the categories of contract which do and do not permit of specific performance, because they are or are not capable of final performance on both sides once and for all. Contracts of employment, which are not capable of final performance once and for all but rather require ongoing, open-ended performance by the employee are the paradigm of non-specifically enforcable contracts.

No open ended tasks.

... and if neither the facts or the law are on your side, pound on the table.

Or its online equivalent, sure. For RPG’s should that be “if neither the facts or the rules are on your side, flip the table”?

Best post on the thread, BTW, but I can’t xp, it seems.

 

[N'raac]

Now, I would argue that this can be done with Contact Other Plane and taking 10. If you do not accept this tactic, I would say that rather Orwellian spell Prying Eyes could be used to scout out the area.

And the fighter can hang out in the swamp waiting to spot a passing Lizard, but it should not be too tough to find the lizard village.

One level 10 Fighter vs one level 10 lizardfolk Fighter

That’s the maximum level leader, actually, and should be a pretty even straight-up battle.

plus his lieutenants

2, of L 3-6?

and entire tribe seems like a losing proposition. As mighty as a Fighter is, I suspect that a sustained barrage of arrows would be rather troublesome.

I see Javelin in their stat block, not bows. Can I set things up so the fighter has no chance? Sure. I can set things up against the wizard too. It’s a swamp – how useful is his Invisibility?

Unquestionably, having the wizard makes it easier, but I have a tough time believing a party of L10 non-spellcasters (like there has ever been one) would be unable to locate the lizardfolk village and question them.

You should probably also shift the gears. Cars don't go very far if set in park.

Is that knowledge limited to mechanical engineers, or shared by most of the general populace?

Though the problem of having animal companions and mounts could possibly be solved by putting them in bags of holding for a few rounds.

“In you go, fellow, just squeeze into this bag”? A bag with an opening a bear can crawl into? A different issue, though.

Well, if the dragon's waiting a few hours to ambush them, I imagine they could make off with some valuable things.

I’d hope so, but the question comes down to the dragon’s approach. The other question is what the goal was, whether loot the dragon’s treasure or put an end to its predation on the surrounding lands. Again back to camaign style.

Readied action to cast the spell after the dragon has used his first move action on a double move, or until he has used his standard action to do something (breathe fire?) and is left with only a move action.

A move action it can use to hover unless its turn is over in which case it falls in its next turn unless it can then move or use a move action to hover.

Are we using Wall of Force or Solid Fog? The latter provides the dragon considerable bouyancy, I believe.

Well, the Cleric was not very useful, but mainly because her spells were geared towards healing people and we decided, as a group, to avoid getting injured as much as possible. However, had we been injured and somehow avoided dying, I am sure she would have been very useful.

Another output of “combat is not a viable challenge solving approach in this unusual scenario”.

See, I used to think like this. I especially objected to the argument against allowing rerolls, on the grounds that many situations should of course allow them.

But...

I've gradually come to the conclusion that such things are more or less a waste of time. If the task truly is routine, why call for a roll at all - why not just say "okay, you pick the lock"? Likewise, if time is not a factor (such that take-20 is possible), then again, where's the tension on a roll - "you take your time, look around thoroughly, and find..."

To me, that’s more what take 10 and take 20 are. Take 10 defines what is, in fact, routine and take 20 defines what can be accomplished if you’re not worried about the time it takes. The rules should, perhaps, clarify an intent that this be less a choice of the player than a function of the task itself and the circumstances surrounding it. While some judgment will always remain, clarity of intent helps a lot, and a lot more “can/cannot” take 10 comments throughout the rules would help (eg. “the wizard can/cannot take 10 to learn a spell/read a scroll/craft an item/know a fact”). And perhaps not "can" but "does" if the intent is that these tasks be trivial. To rerolls, I like the idea of a fail on Take 10 leading to a real roll or a Take 20 ("Hmm-this lock is really well built - I'll have to work on it")

"When to roll" is an aspect that could certainly stand more guidance, especially for new GM's and players.