Fighters vs. Spellcasters (a case for fighters.)

All that is presumably just as available to the 37th-level wizard, so I figured it was a wash, and that it was their differing class abilities that would be relevant.
There is a certain homogenization that occurs as a consequence of 3e's epic level rules. At that level, your character's class abilities constitute a relatively small portion of what you can do. However, in general, there is a modest advantage for nonmagical characters because of several factors.

Ability scores tend to be better placed for nonmagical characters. Social constraints (i.e. people are likely to treat you better if you aren't a spellcaster). Efficiency of item usage.

But if the argument is "a 37th-level fighter can keep up with a 37th-level wizard if the fighter is also actually a wizard", then maybe their class abilities are a wash too, so, yeah, I guess they would be pretty evenly matched.
True, but on the other hand, if we're talking about a human with the standard array of ability scores, the standard gold allotment, 37 levels of just fighter, and no other special perks, that human is a straw man. An actual character should not be and generally is not built so simply. Part of 3e is that multiclassing and other forms of customization are de rigeur. Maybe fighter 20/wizard 17 is one way that could go, but there are tons and tons of ways to spend all those levels and associated resources.

Perhaps more realistically, I should state that a tricked out character with fighter levels but also with a monstrous race and custom-built artifacts and fancy prestige class abilities and so one is roughly equal to a tricked out prestige classed wizard or cleric with similar benefits.
 

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I have no doubt that you can achieve a balanced game at epic levels in 3.x. I have some thoughts on that which I may or may not get to at a later time. However, [MENTION=17106]Ahnehnois[/MENTION], I am curious about the makeup of your 37th-level characters. Could you give an example of what a typical 'mundane' and 'magical' character looks like in your campaign?
 

I have no doubt that you can achieve a balanced game at epic levels in 3.x. I have some thoughts on that which I may or may not get to at a later time. However, [MENTION=17106]Ahnehnois[/MENTION], I am curious about the makeup of your 37th-level characters. Could you give an example of what a typical 'mundane' and 'magical' character looks like in your campaign?
Epic level play is not exactly the middle of the road and I haven't done it in a while.

However, I was using an example of a character who was a half-dragon but otherwise a straight fighter IIRC. He probably started with around a modifier total of 11 for his ability scores, and probably had the maximum allowable inherent bonus in any that he cared about. I know he had an artifact sword with spectacular powers and some kind of smite ability (which I think is what killed the dragon). I would guess he had multiple additional artifact-level magic items, which may or may not have been relevant in the scenario I described. For me, an artifact magic item not only includes epic-level numerical bonuses, but some special power that violates conventional limits (an untyped bonus for example, or the ability to reroll or otherwise change the paradigm of a d20 roll, or some open-ended wishlike power). I'm sure the character also had an array of feats cherry-picked from all available sources, and probably over a million gp in nonartifact epic magic items. The player still uses the character's name as his message board avatar.

Another character I recall being in that party was a blind wizard, who had some kind of blindsight ability that I can't recall how he got, and I think was human and straight wizards up to 37 or so. As this was a new character (whereas the fighter had been played at earlier levels) I suspect the weight of his gear was marginally less. However, I'm sure he also had multiple limit-breaking artifacts, and probably the same ability scores and gp. He had a virtually limitless allotment of spells as characters of that level do. I'm sure he had some custom-designed epic spells (I like the epic spell system, though it requires a lot of adjudication). His blindsight may have been useful in targeting the dragon; I don't recall. However, the thought of him doing any direct or indirect harm to it was pretty unlikely.

My point would be that by having made it to 37th level, a character is pretty clearly not typical. If a character advances through play to that level, some pretty special things are accumulated in the process. If a character is created for that level, I assume a certain Darwinian aspect and treat the character as being super special. I'm not sure how a standard array, single-classed human with only garden-variety treasure fares in the wizard 37 vs fighter 37 comparison, but I don't think that's a reasonable comparison regardless.

To a lesser extent, I think the same logic applies to high-level play within the core rules. I don't assume that any wizard that made it to double-digit levels started with 15 Int, nor a fighter with 15 Str. High level is not an assumed part of a typical adventurer's career; high level characters are special.
 
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Summary of PBP

<snip>

That's all for now.

Thanks for the thoughtful, cogent post sheadunne. I can't xp (I feel like I've xped 5 million people and I still can't xp the people who I normally xp as soon as it pops). There is a lot of robust, focused stuff there to comment on.

I'll try to work up a post this evening after I take my mother out for her 67th (!) birthday. I think I may have some interesting commentary.
 

Thanks for the thoughtful, cogent post sheadunne. I can't xp (I feel like I've xped 5 million people and I still can't xp the people who I normally xp as soon as it pops). There is a lot of robust, focused stuff there to comment on.

I'll try to work up a post this evening after I take my mother out for her 67th (!) birthday. I think I may have some interesting commentary.

I expect you will. And my thoughts are still being focused so any of it is amendable. What also interesting is that most of it is viewed from myself as a player. As a DM running a similar event, any issues I have might not be as relevant. I tend to DM differently than I play as I have different objectives as a player and DM.
 

from an open/broad descriptor perspective, I find that the Heal and Thievery Skills suffer the most.
I'll reserve judgement on Thievery, as none of the players in my game is trained in it yet it does come up from time to time. But Heal I definitely agree with - I have a player trained in Heal but it really doesn't come up that often. Whereas social, knowledge and physical skills all get used a lot.
 



All I can say is that a 37th level fighter is a beast.

At 37th level I can have Wizard 5/ Cleric 5/ Mystic theurge 10/ Arch Mage 5/ herriaphaint 5/ Epic mystic theurge 7

24 caster level in wizard 23 caster level in cleric 9 epic feats... lets take epic skill focus spellcraft, Epic spell casting, Autamatic quicken spell, multi spell, 5 improved spell capacity...

so all my 0th-3rd level spells are quickened, and I can cast 2 quicken spells per round (3 total) I have 14th level wizard spells, and 9th level cleric spells,
oh and I can create my own epic spells

lets say I started with 16 and 17 in my two caster stats (I'll put the lower in Int) 9 stat increases will be 4 in wis and 5 in Int so 21... I have +6 enhancement items and +5 inherent to both (easy enough at that level) so 32 Int and can take 40 skill ranks and +12 from feats and +10 from magic items can give a +73 spell craft check at ease...

yea, so in your mind are those characters equal?
 

yea, so in your mind are those characters equal?
In my mind the mystic theurge is more of a support/utility character who offers a lot of out of combat functionality and buffing and healing but can't really do much to overcome direct challenges and isn't very durable. The fighter is probably glad to have him around, and the mystic theurge probably likes having a fighter around.

Wizard 5/ Cleric 5/ Mystic theurge 10/ Arch Mage 5/ herriaphaint 5/ Epic mystic theurge 7
It is worth noting though, that if you actually play this character at lower levels, he is not only not superior but is actually pitiful for a large portion of career. Thus goes the weirdness of caster multiclassing in 3e. Even if the endpoint was clear superiority, I've yet to see a player take a chance on the mystic theurge route.
 

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