Fighters vs. Spellcasters (a case for fighters.)

Planar Binding or Summon X say "No, not really."

The Planar Binding series is dicy at best:

srd said:
Casting this spell attempts a dangerous act: to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap, which must lie within the spell’s range. The called creature is held in the trap until it agrees to perform one service in return for its freedom.

To create the trap, you must use a magic circle spell, focused inward. The kind of creature to be bound must be known and stated. If you wish to call a specific individual, you must use that individual’s proper name in casting the spell.

The target creature is allowed a Will saving throw. If the saving throw succeeds, the creature resists the spell. If the saving throw fails, the creature is immediately drawn to the trap (spell resistance does not keep it from being called). The creature can escape from the trap with by successfully pitting its spell resistance against your caster level check, by dimensional travel, or with a successful Charisma check (DC 15 + ½ your caster level + your Cha modifier). It can try each method once per day. If it breaks loose, it can flee or attack you.

You might be waiting a while to get that creature to agree to serve you. Hope you aren't under any time pressure.

A dimensional anchor cast on the creature prevents its escape via dimensional travel. You can also employ a calling diagram (see magic circle against evil) to make the trap more secure.

If the creature does not break free of the trap, you can keep it bound for as long as you dare. You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward. You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature’s Charisma check. The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward. If the creature wins the opposed check, it refuses service. New offers, bribes, and the like can be made or the old ones reoffered every 24 hours. This process can be repeated until the creature promises to serve, until it breaks free, or until you decide to get rid of it by means of some other spell. Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to. If you roll a 1 on the Charisma check, the creature breaks free of the binding and can escape or attack you.

5% shot every attempt that the creature can flee or attack immediately - and you with no fighter!

Once the requested service is completed, the creature need only so inform you to be instantly sent back whence it came. The creature might later seek revenge. If you assign some open-ended task that the creature cannot complete though its own actions the spell remains in effect for a maximum of one day per caster level, and the creature gains an immediate chance to break free. Note that a clever recipient can subvert some instructions.

So, how many times do you pull that stunt without a group of your former victims coming after you?

As for Summon, I do so love full round casting times.

Only if the wizard is both too stupid to divine, to take Uncanny Forethough, and to be prepared in case of an attack.

In my books, any feat which is a must have should be downgraded. No option should be a no brainer. With Spell Mastery, limited access and a full round for any but the Mastered spells, I don't find this feat the same WotC's Gift to Wizards you consider it to be.

First off, "Blindsense" isn't "smell," but, more importantly, spectral hand>blindsense.

No, it's the reason Dragons need not waste a feat on Blindsense. Spectral Hands don't hold up well to breath weapons. Dragons move fast and cover large areas. If there's a nice, straight line of sight between you and a Dragon, and he was not caught unawares, I'd bet he's in range to breath weapon and either flee or close the gap for melee as he sees fit. Dragons also have pretty decent mental stats.

Cool. And do these opponents have Detect Invisibility always up?

There are mundane means of locating the appropriate location, or determining where to cast spells. Funny, the bloodhounds/rangers/whatever track them this far, then there are no more prints/tracks/scents leading away. And they don't have to find their attackers to plan, reinforce, bolster their defenses or just leave - likely with whatever they had that lead you here in the first place.

If the marauders are level eight wizards, what the hell are they doing as marauders? They could make much more money as... almost anything, really.

If you're running through my home, killing and looting, I'd call you a marauder. If you're not an adventurer, then the game gets pretty dull. I'm not sure where you see Permanency being needed - but if you and your group cannot imagine using non-magical means to accomplish anything but infliction of damage, I can see where you would start to see spellcasters as unbeatable.

Never, because the mage have protections against such things and probably won't allow itself to be hit anyways.

Good luck with that...

Because they're easy to hit.

My targets are generally not selected based on who's easy to hit. Who's the greatest threat ranks a lot higher. You vastly overestimate the defense of the Wizard. At least as compared to any game I've played in or run.

No, you're coddled, as you've never seen a mage try before.

As we will never game together, I suppose we will never know, will we?

Wizards don't care about Ray of Enfeeblement

Wizards have a habit of dumping STR. That makes STR damage a pretty serious threat.

can protect themselves from Disintegrate with defensive spells such as Mirror Image, and at the level where Slay Living comes into play, simply stay out of reach of the melee touch attack.

Sometimes, yes. Other times, the opponent can get lucky. That breath weapon gets the wizard and his images, so who cares if the Dragon knows which is which? Or he just SHUTS HIS EYES and uses Blindsense.

Hey N'raac. I've seen you invoke this before as your reasoning for it to be reasonable for the world to have a tour de force of understanding and security measures against Spellcasters; Magic items are pervasive, therefore (presumably) wizards, as a percentage of the population, is not some outrageously remote number. However, it really fails to consider a primary vector, that being time. Consider the FR timeline alone. You're talking 300000 + years of spellcasting and magic item creation, empires rising and falling to ruin, some being erased from the annals of history. Time could (probably should) be the primary reason for an influx of magic items into the world economy. At any point in history there could be an extremely remote number of spellcasters as a percentage of the populace and still there would be an easy explanation for the number of magic items. Adventurers unearthing ancient ruins and pillaging tombs has always been my explanation for any magic item prevalence. There doesn't need to be an assumption of a spellcasting as a widely practiced art.

As I said, if we assume there are very few spellcasters, that makes the spells much more mysterious. But it also begs the question how the wizard (or anyone else) finds exactly the spells and items he wants, when he wants and has the gold for them. Why is there such a ready market if no one can identify them, make use of them, etc.? Why is it so easy to locate weird spell components? And how do PC's have such standard knowledge of magical abilities if they are rare in the extreme? For that matter, how did all those unbeatable mages if the past fail to rule the world? Why aren't elves and liches in charge?

In my experience, any percentage of tavern-members approaching double digits that understands Charm Person, any percentage of lairs that are loaded to the teeth with anti-wizard contingencies (nondetection, alarm, anti-magic zones, anti-teleportation stuff) yields dissatisfication evolving into distrust evolving into disdain from spellcaster players (and fairly so I'd say).

Seems like a dissatisfaction that the wizard is not simply allowed to be omnipotent. The Forgotten Realms you use as an example seem pretty chock-full of spellcasters, in my experience. If there's a ready market for magic items, I'd expect some public awareness of them, and I'd expect planners and tacticians to consider those abilities. It seems like "magic is dripping from the trees" is very popular when the spellcaster wants a scroll of a specific 5th or 6th level spell (or a gross of Cure Light Wounds wands), but not so popular when the ramifications stop working entirely in their favour.

Says the rules. No dragon in any book I can think of has Scent.

Since every one of them has Blindsense, why would they be motivated to waste a feat on it?

What GM with a poor sense of balance would flat-out make up creatures? Why someone would use creatures not in any books as counterexample in an online discussion is beyond me.

So creating an opponent that can, in some way, challenge the omnipotence of your spellcaster demonstrates "a poor sense of balance"? Seems like a double standard there - why would a player with any sense of balance intentionally create an omnipotent wizard? Why would he expect the rules options available not to be constrained, to reduce or remove truly broken combinations?

I'm still trying to figure out why the dragon chooses a lair that those annoying humanoids can access so easily. And look at those Sorcerer levels - Alarm should be as or more universal to dragons as Uncanny Forethought is to wizards. It's not like they can use L1 spells for combat by the time they get them! [A Dragon using Rope Trick - there's an amusing picture!]
 
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What GM with a poor sense of balance would flat-out make up creatures? Why someone would use creatures not in any books as counterexample in an online discussion is beyond me.Also, why a GM that would let an ability do something it is completely and explicitly incapable of doing(Such as Scent working more than 60' away) is beyond me.
Your first question is absurd. WHY I would use such an example is the point you've missed - that millions of things NOT in the books are all fair game, in any edition, and the spellcaster that forgets that may have a shortened lifespan! As for this "Scent" ability you keep talking about, I've never read it. It's just an example of what can go wrong in a plan made too close to the books, and brings us back to why fighters can hang.

and, yeah, I always like to make monsters, especially major ones, different from the books, not to screw anyone, but to retain some mystery
 

Your first question is absurd.
No, it is perfectly sensible.
WHY I would use such an example is the point you've missed - that millions of things NOT in the books are all fair game,
No, they aren't. Especially not in online discussions they aren't.
in any edition, and the spellcaster that forgets that may have a shortened lifespan!
Nope. In fact, extending life or getting immortality is super easy in 3.5
As for this "Scent" ability you keep talking about, I've never read it.
>Talking about the rules
>Hasn't read the rules
lolwut.
It's just an example of what can go wrong in a plan made too close to the books,
Oh, you are so right! The rules of the game are absolutely divorced from the rules of the game. How could I have not seen it before? Also, my fighter is now level elevnty billion and has wings and a uranium katana because, I mean, I don't want it to be too close to the books, you know?
and brings us back to why fighters can hang.
No, they can hang because they lack teleportation and need to breathe.
and, yeah, I always like to make monsters, especially major ones, different from the books, not to screw anyone, but to retain some mystery
...And this is relevant how? He said Shivering Touch a dragon from a hundred+ feat away. You responded by talking about a dragon using an ability it doesn't have at a range farther than the ability has.
 

What GM with a poor sense of balance would flat-out make up creatures? Why someone would use creatures not in any books as counterexample in an online discussion is beyond me.

Also, why a GM that would let an ability do something it is completely and explicitly incapable of doing(Such as Scent working more than 60' away) is beyond me.

There is nothing wrong with making up creatures.

RPGs consist of something somebody somewhen made up. Yes, we can give a nod to real history and warfare as to the inspiration for the fighter and other parts of the games, but the rest is something somebody sat down and decided to make up.

If you have an experienced gaming group, chances are they will have read about, GM'd or previously fought the critters as written in the books. To mix things up and make it more interesting, lots of folks modify existing critters or make up new critters for the PCs to engage. So yes, there will be dragons with the scent ability, orcs with gills and albino drow.

Sharks can 'smell' blood at least a quarter mile away; some species can smell blood from greater distances.
 

Seriously? DM's don't make up their own monsters? If they do, it's because they suck?
This is the quintessential nature of the game, friend. There aren't rules for every circumstance, and bringing that up is completely fair. Why it's not allowed in an internet discussion, I don't subscribe to.
 

Wizards have a habit of dumping STR. That makes STR damage a pretty serious threat.
Unfortunately, Ray of Enfeeblement inflicts a strength penalty.


Sometimes, yes. Other times, the opponent can get lucky.
Well, by that logic, Disintegrate works great against Fighters as well, because the enemy can get lucky!

That breath weapon gets the wizard and his images, so who cares if the Dragon knows which is which?
Well, for starters, we weren't talking about the Dragon casting disintegrate. In fact, the conversation about Disintegrate was with someone else about something else, so I'd appreciate if you got your facts straight before posting so you could contribute to the discussion effectively.

Seriously? DM's don't make up their own monsters? If they do, it's because they suck?
This is the quintessential nature of the game, friend. There aren't rules for every circumstance, and bringing that up is completely fair. Why it's not allowed in an internet discussion, I don't subscribe to.
I think the issue he is taking with your statements is that you are saying that the DM does not need to play by the rules. At which point, what is the point of playing a game with rules?
 

There is nothing wrong with making up creatures.
No. But there is a problem with making up monsters and then using them in online discussions as if they were existing monsters. Or making monsters when one has a poor grasp of balance. But that's a fight for another day, I think.
If you have an experienced gaming group, chances are they will have read about, GM'd or previously fought the critters as written in the books. To mix things up and make it more interesting, lots of folks modify existing critters or make up new critters for the PCs to engage.
I know. I've helped write a couple monsters for the normal GM of my group. However, I both have a solid grasp of mechanics and balance, and I don't try to use them as justification for terrible arguments online.
orcs with gills
Already exist.
and albino drow.
I thought albinism was statted up somewhere.
Sharks can 'smell' blood at least a quarter mile away; some species can smell blood from greater distances.
Cool. I'll skip all the problems comparing that to an actual sense of smell other problems with that, and move straight to the biggest problem; Scent has a 30' range, 60' under favorable conditions. That's what Scent is.
Seriously? DM's don't make up their own monsters? If they do, it's because they suck?
...You really didn't read my post, did you? I don't get it, is it really that hard?
This is the quintessential nature of the game, friend. There aren't rules for every circumstance, and bringing that up is completely fair. Why it's not allowed in an internet discussion, I don't subscribe to.
Okay. Then in my games, all fighters instantly die when exposed to lettuce. Therefore they are irrelevant.

You see the problem now? Bringing your houserules into a discussion of the mechanics of the game and using them to back up your argument doesn't work. It it, quite frankly, stupid. You can have all the dragons with scent your little heart desires, but they don't matter here, because the discussion is about the power of fighters and wizards, not what homebrew abominations you can throw together.
 


This is the quintessential nature of the game, friend. There aren't rules for every circumstance, and bringing that up is completely fair. Why it's not allowed in an internet discussion, I don't subscribe to.
If you are saying that "I, as a DM, can make a custom monster that wizards cannot curb stomp" then isn't that a tacit admission that the default rules allow wizards to be too powerful?

That is what Cyclone Joker is trying to say, I believe.

After all, in a discussion about the rules of the game, shouldn't we stick to the rules of the game?

If I were to ask for chess advice, I would sincerely hope that the person giving me advice based his advice on the rules for chess and not the rules that his family uses.
 
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The Planar Binding series is dicy at best: You might be waiting a while to get that creature to agree to serve you.
So? They last as long as you need them.
5% shot every attempt that the creature can flee or attack immediately
Nope.
- and you with no fighter!
So? Wizard. Goes first.
So, how many times do you pull that stunt without a group of your former victims coming after you?
Given how I'm vastly more powerful than all of them, I'd say "never, on account of if they do I kill them."
In my books, any feat which is a must have should be downgraded. No option should be a no brainer.
Not my problem.
With Spell Mastery, limited access and a full round for any but the Mastered spells, I don't find this feat the same WotC's Gift to Wizards you consider it to be.
You don't like Beholder Mage-level casting?
Spectral Hands don't hold up well to breath weapons.
It's a good thing I'm not too worried about the breath weapon of a Dex 0 dragon, then.
Dragons move fast and cover large areas.
Not when they can't move they don't.
If there's a nice, straight line of sight between you and a Dragon, and he was not caught unawares, I'd bet he's in range to breath weapon and either flee or close the gap for melee as he sees fit.
Cool. You weren't paying attention to the conversation, were you?
There are mundane means of locating the appropriate location,
Sure, I'd love to hear about this mundane, always-active See Invis. Where is it?
or determining where to cast spells.
So now your mundane trackers can cast spells, too?
Funny, the bloodhounds/rangers/whatever track them this far, then there are no more prints/tracks/scents leading away.
So now a wizard is being tracked and his party is leaving footprints? Wow, I've never heard of an Intelligence 6 wizard before.
And they don't have to find their attackers to plan, reinforce, bolster their defenses or just leave - likely with whatever they had that lead you here in the first place.
So now this grand enemy that takes a bunch of worthless classes that I'm supposed to take seriously is just going to leae after locating my wizard despite having no ability to? Nice.
If you're running through my home, killing and looting, I'd call you a marauder.
And?
If you're not an adventurer, then the game gets pretty dull.
So now you're equating adventurers to common highwaymen? Nice. Some group you've got going.
I'm not sure where you see Permanency being needed - but if you and your group cannot imagine using non-magical means to accomplish anything but infliction of damage, I can see where you would start to see spellcasters as unbeatable.
You're joking, right? The portal is invisible. So I'd love to know how you propose to find this portal without see invis.
My targets are generally not selected based on who's easy to hit. Who's the greatest threat ranks a lot higher.
When you're not going to be able to do anything to the greatest threat?
You vastly overestimate the defense of the Wizard.
No, I just know what spells do.
As we will never game together, I suppose we will never know, will we?
No, I know right now.
Wizards have a habit of dumping STR. That makes STR damage a pretty serious threat.
Shame there's no strength damage in the spell you mentioned, eh?
Sometimes, yes. Other times, the opponent can get lucky.
Not if the wizard even resembles competent.
That breath weapon gets the wizard and his images, so who cares if the Dragon knows which is which?
You're making it sound like a breath weapon isn't pathetically easy to ignore.
Or he just SHUTS HIS EYES and uses Blindsense.
So now we're close to a dragon and a dragon is stupid enough to cast those garbage spells instead of doing anything that even has a chance of being meaningful.
Since every one of them has Blindsense, why would they be motivated to waste a feat on it?
Hell if I know. I wasn't the one who said dragons had scent.
So creating an opponent that can, in some way, challenge the omnipotence of your spellcaster demonstrates "a poor sense of balance"?
No. Showing a poor sense of balance does.
Seems like a double standard there - why would a player with any sense of balance intentionally create an omnipotent wizard?
It's like you've never actually read a single post I've written.
Why would he expect the rules options available not to be constrained, to reduce or remove truly broken combinations?
Because they're the rules?
I'm still trying to figure out why the dragon chooses a lair that those annoying humanoids can access so easily.
Because Wizard>Dragon.
And look at those Sorcerer levels
At what? How few they have?
- Alarm should be as or more universal to dragons as Uncanny Forethought is to wizards.
No, because Alarm is bad and Uncanny Forethought is good.
It's not like they can use L1 spells for combat by the time they get them!
They can get ones that aren't that worthless.
After all, in a discussion about the rules of the game, shouldn't we stick to the rules of the game?
Thank you!
 

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