Fixing mundane classes - a disciplined approach?

[StreamOfTheSky]

I would never allow AT to give you -1 level adjusted metamagic feats, even if the end result isn't negative. Even so, AT is pretty good if you don't mind one or two-trick ponying. My friend made a sorcerer/incantatrix for a game starting at 14th level once and had AT for Scorching Ray and Wings of Flurry and was doing hundreds of damage. When you kill the enemies in one spell, direct damage becomes "battlefield control."

 

[Aus_Snow]

D&D just isn't D&D without dragons, dungeons, magical loot, spellcasters, elves, and junk. That's just how it's always been and always will be for me.

Agreed!

I think my OP might've given the impression to some, that I meant "getting rid of spellcasters" or something. Not at all! I meant that the idea was to exclude the use of magic/psionics (etc.) in "powering up" the melee classes. Just to render some rather obvious solutions stillborn, as it were.

Or it could be I have misinterpreted one or two posts. If so, my bad, and never mind.


edit: And once again, I cannot XP Celebrim. Well, I liked the post anyway, for what it's worth. Just finishing up reading the others now...

 

[Celebrim]

Arcane Thesis does indeed lower the cost of each metamagic feat applied by 1, so Energy Sub becomes -1, Split becomes +1, and Maximized becomes +2.

Oh dear. They errata'd it to make it more powerful?

The FAQ originally answered this with:

If a character with Arcane Thesis (Player’s Handbook II, 74) applies multiple metamagic feats to the chosen spell, is the spell’s slot reduced by one level, or by one level per metamagic feat applied?

Arcane Thesis reduces the total spell level of a metamagic-affected spell by one, regardless of the number of metamagic feats applied. An empowered (+2 levels), still (+1 level), silent (+1 level) fireball would be 6th level.

Apparantly the errata reversed that. Yet another reason I am so glad I diverged from the RAW before 3.5 came out and never followed down that path. Arcane thesis is probably detrimental to the game even before the errata.

And you'd be firing four rays, not three, as Split Ray affects the spell, not a single ray out of the spell. So assuming a hit with all four rays, 96 damage.

Isn't the text of Split Ray something like this?

Split Ray
[Metamagic]
Your ray spells can affect an additional target.

Prerequisite: Any metamagic feat

Benefit: You can cause any ray spell to fire one additional ray beyond the number normally allowed. The additional ray requires a separate ranged touch attack roll to hit and deals damage as normal. It can be fired at the same target as the first ray or at a different target, but all rays must be aimed at targets within 30 feet of each other and fired simultaneously. A split ray spell uses a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.

If it doubles the number of rays, how is it any different than Twin Spell (adds +4 to level)?

 

[Empirate]

Oh, I overlooked that one. Was more of an... theoretical example, obviously. Forget it.

I always took Split Ray to be less costly than Twin Spell because it affects only Rays, not all spells? That's like 1/20th of all spells ever printed, or less! Also, adding only a single ray is seriously lame for a +2 metamagic!
Say it with me: "most, if not all, metamagic, is just not worth it without massive cost reducers".

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I don't mind AT reducing the cost of every meta feat by one. It only benefits ONE spell afterall, and Easy/Practical Metamagic gives that same -1 level to one metamagic feat for any spell you use it with. It's just abusing it with +0 meta feats mixed in with some that do cost levels to get some -1's thrown in that I would never stand for.

And yes, Split Ray is +1 ray. Just don't use it for Scorching Ray, it's not good for that spell. Simple as that. Use it for Disintigrate, Ray of Stupidity (if it isn't banned), etc...

 

[Ahnehnois]

If you were to limit yourself to "no magic/psionics" and also "no 'blade magic'" (or whatever; lol), how would you go about bringing up to speed any mundane classes that might (in your opinion) need a boost, in as few steps as possible?

With as few changes as can be, and preferably with the simplest possible changes too, how would you do it? Extra points for only using PHB, or PHB-style, mechanics. Can it even be done...

*Implement Vitality/Wound points (UA): Puts a higher value on having a high Con and makes crits more meaningful. Also makes casters more vulnerable. Also an opportunity to power down healing spells.
*Implement Combat Reactions (TB): Essentially gives out extra little actions; high BAB helps a lot.
*Implement Combat Exploits (TB): Gives more choices for fighters.
*Implement Combat Maneuvers (PF) and accompanying feats: Gives more choices for fighters.
*Implement Action Points (UA): Fighters often need just a bit extra on a d20, and emulating feats is great.
*Implement Medium Saves: Increase fighter/rogue/etc. saves in some way, decrease caster saves.

Also, extra question: Has anyone here gone the other way, and nerfed full casters? Assuming for a moment here and above that conventional wisdom is indeed wise, and spellcaster pwn anyone and everyone else.

As part of my magic system rewrite, I made all spellcasters split their ability scores (i.e. one for spells per day/spell points, and a different one for DCs). That really helps.

A more radical fix might be increased casting time for higher level spells.

Of course, people that can teleport/change shape/read minds/grant wishes are never going to be truly balanced with those that aren't, but all four D&D basic classes can be made relevant and interesting.

 

[Celebrim]

I always took Split Ray to be less costly than Twin Spell because it affects only Rays, not all spells? That's like 1/20th of all spells ever printed, or less! Also, adding only a single ray is seriously lame for a +2 metamagic!

Well, in most cases Split Ray really does twin the spell. Split ray Ray of Enfeeblement hits two targets. Split ray Disentigrate or Polay Ray is going to be potentially a boat load of damage because you are doubling effectiveness - inessence firing off a quickened version of the same spell - for just +2 metamagic.

Say it with me: "most, if not all, metamagic, is just not worth it without massive cost reducers".

Say it with me: "The core full casters are the most powerful and potentially broken classes in the game even if we do nothing to enhance their power. Therefore, anything that greatly increases the power and effectiveness of their already amazing options, is not only lame, but ridiculously lame."

 

[Dandu]

I don't mind AT reducing the cost of every meta feat by one. It only benefits ONE spell afterall, and Easy/Practical Metamagic gives that same -1 level to one metamagic feat for any spell you use it with. It's just abusing it with +0 meta feats mixed in with some that do cost levels to get some -1's thrown in that I would never stand for.

I wouldn't stand for it either.

Good thing I game sitting down, though.