D&D (2024) Greyhawk 2024: comparing Oerth and Earth

[Parmandur]

This is how Gygax creates a culture: consider his invention of the Drow.

Gygax borrows the concept of Light Elf versus Dark Elf from reallife Norse folkbelief. He misunderstands it as if referring to American skin-color racism. The Norse terms refer to hair color, but apply to literal luminosity verses dwelling in darkness, and moreso to the mindful intentions. Then as a twist, he throws in Greek Arachnea. Then he calls this amalgam reallife sources by the Scottish word "drow" (which actually derives from the Norse term trǫll).

Gygax creates all of the human cultures in the same way, a reallife reference with a twist. For example, the "North" "Barbarians" are plainly a Norse culture, especially Norwegian. In reallife, I have more than one relative named "Ingrid". It is almost entirely negative stereotypes made deeply worse by fusing it with Nazi German racism and cultural appropriation and misrepresentation.


In any case, the point is, even when creating a fictional culture, sensitivity.

They make broad gestures, but not exact parallels. What culture is the Hold of Stonefist supposed to be? Or Irongste? Or the Lordship of the Isles?

 

[Yaarel]

They make broad gestures, but not exact parallels. What culture is the Hold of Stonefist supposed to be? Or Irongste? Or the Lordship of the Isles?

These are fantasy versions of a culture. I hope I am being clear about that.

But they have to be fantasies that the referred reallife cultures can enjoy.


(Regarding Stonefist, in 1980 Gygax it represents an intermarriage of Norse explorers and Indigenous Canadians. In 2024, it represents a stable government that was however founded by bandits from various cultures.)

 

[Parmandur]

These are fantasy versions of a culture. I hope I am being clear about that.

But they have to be fantasies that the referred reallife cultures can enjoy.


(Regarding Stonefist, in 1980 Gygax it represents an intermarriage of Norse explorers and Indigenous Canadians. In 2024, it represents a stable government that was however founded by bandits from various cultures.)

I am just trying to warn against over-identifying the "Rovers" as "Indigenous Canadians" or the northern Kingdoms as "Nordic". There are elements of Wild West pulp influences on the "Rovers" and the Northern "Barbarians" are Viking-ing pretty hard...but they are not those things anymore thna the Great Kingdom is Byzantium.

 

[Yaarel]

I am just trying to warn against over-identifying the "Rovers" as "Indigenous Canadians" or the northern Kingdoms as "Nordic". There are elements of Wild West pulp influences on the "Rovers" and the Northern "Barbarians" are Viking-ing pretty hard...but they are not those things anymore thna the Great Kingdom is Byzantium.

The Great Kingdom is a Euro-medievalized fantasy version of the United States.

 

[Parmandur]

The Great Kingdom is a Euro-medievalized fantasy version of the United States.

That is a bit of a stretch.

 

[Yaarel]

Not only are the Rovers Indigenous, they are Cree.

I dont have the magazine, but this is said to be a portrait of a Rover

And from D&D fandom:

Also from 2000 Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, note the "Flan" portray as the Indigenous of North America with an exaggeration of "war paint" stereotypes, in contrast to Olman who are the Indigenous of Central and South Americas.

D&D Greyhawk explicitly refers to these Human cultural groupings as if "races".

(The Baklunish depicts contemporary Zeif. The Suloise wears masculine Norse clothes. The Rhennee is a Romani "gypsie". Etcetera, etcetera.)

 

[TiQuinn]

As you say, even when inventing a new culture, one is still drawing inspiration from reallife cultures − and probably relying on the stereotypes about those cultures, many of them negative. People from those cultures will recognize and feel this.

Also, when creating a setting or writing any story, the author does best when being knowledgeable about the subject matter. Being knowledgeable about the cultures one is borrowing from will help form a deeper and less stereotypical fantasy culture with more verisimilitude.

I think there’s a difference here between someone creating a setting for their own use at a table versus creating a product that is going to be for others to consume.

 

[Parmandur]

Not only are the Rovers Indigenous, they are Cree.

I see allusions to Mohican and Cheyenne stuff in the original for the Rovers. It is not 1 to 1 with any one real-world analog.

 

[Yaarel]

I see allusions to Mohican and Cheyenne stuff in the original for the Rovers. It is not 1 to 1 with any one real-world analog.

The fantasy formula is: take something familiar then add a twist with something unfamiliar.

The most serious difficulties with the Greyhawk setting is the reliance on and even heightening of reallife negative stereotypes.

I think there’s a difference here between someone creating a setting for their own use at a table versus creating a product that is going to be for others to consume.

I agree there is a difference between public and private. But.

In the age of internet, there is little or no difference when private campaigns are often online.

D&D fandom gaming culture does well to adopt cultural sensitivity as a discipline that is part of world building.

I feel most D&D gamers understand the difficulties, and want to figure out how to get past them and move forward in a constructive way.

 

[TiQuinn]

The fantasy formula is: take something familiar then add a twist with something unfamiliar.

The most serious difficulties with the Greyhawk setting is the reliance on and even heightening of reallife negative stereotypes.




I agree there is a difference between public and private. But.

In the age of internet, there is little or no difference when private campaigns are often online.

D&D fandom gaming culture does well to adopt cultural sensitivity as a discipline that is part of world building.

I feel most D&D gamers understand the difficulties, and want to figure out how to get past them and move forward in a constructive way.

I think there’s still considerable difference because the vast majority are still private. I wouldn’t want an at-home DM to get burdened by the idea of researching cultures for inclusion as part of their fantasy campaign to the point that they feel they can’t meet the bar expected by a published setting. If they wish to do so by choice, that’s one thing. If they wish to do so because they have players from those cultures, that’s one thing. Doing it because they are worried about perception from a public or forum that will never see their work is another.