Yaarel
🇮🇱 🇺🇦 He-Mage
Same as my dads name!
Keep in mind, the stereotype that vikings are "Conan the Barbarian" is also offensive.
So the trope of anti-mage barbarians is also a nonstarter.
In fact, the Norse immerse in magic.
D&D (2024) Greyhawk 2024: comparing Oerth and Earth
- Thread starter Yaarel
- Start date
So the trope of anti-mage barbarians is also a nonstarter.
In fact, the Norse immerse in magic.
Yaarel
🇮🇱 🇺🇦 He-Mage
Fortunate for Switzerland.
Correct.
Ur-Germanic was (wrongly) supposed to precede German. Germany would be one of the members of this Ur "race".
Parmandur
Book-Friend, he/him
He is as serious as a heart attack.
Exactly this: and it makes sense to me that WotC would move away from Nazi parallels, for the same reason than Gygqx moved away from...everything going on with Skull Face
Parmandur
Book-Friend, he/him
Sure. But thst doesn't mean that, granting an outmoded anthropological model, everyone of a general background is the same. The point of hisnfour major human groups is that they are deep history that doesn't dictate everything about "contemporary" Greyhawk, just provides some context like why the North Kingdoms are suspicious of mages and civilization (because Gygax wanted some of Howard's "cowboy Libertarianism" in the mix).
Yaarel
🇮🇱 🇺🇦 He-Mage
LOL! And correct.
It is the same problem as Rhennee=Romani. But it involves an other ethnicity and a different set of offensive tropes.
I am glad WotC is backing away from the N*zi crap.
I am also glad for WotC products like Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, that draw inspiration from reallife cultures more responsibly.
Paul Farquhar
Legend
Norwegian vikings also settled the Scottish Isles and Ireland.
I can trace my ancestry to Scottish Norwegian vikings on my father’s side and Northumbrian Danish vikings on my mother’s side.
Yaarel
🇮🇱 🇺🇦 He-Mage
I want to give a sense of what the Norse language looks like, to have in mind for flavor.
Take for example, the name for the Danish island Sjælland (from earlier Sioland). It literally means "sea land". English renders this name as Zealand. So, Sjælland is a native endonym, while Zealand is a foreign exonym.
A number of names in the Greyhawk setting are of interest to Norse identity. Here are what the endonymic names might look like.
NORSE ENDONYM (Foreign Exonym): MEANING
Frosti (Frutzi): freeze doer
Hrímsk (Cruski): frost-ian
Norðdómar (North Kingdoms): north courts
Risi (Rhizia): giant
Snæi (Schnai): snow doer
Svali (Suel): cool, chill
Þullundr (Thillonria): grove of sages
Ǫrn, Arn- (Arn): eagle
Jǫtunumheimr (Jotnumheim): surrounding realm of the jǫtunn
Skaðahár (Skandahar): high one of damage
Sæi (Zeai): sea doer
If using an English keyboard, two letters (digraph) can represent certain Norse letters for informal contexts.
ð: dh, d
þ: th, t
æ,ä,ę: ae
ø,ö,ǿ,œ: oe
ǫ,å: aa
(I dont see it done, but it seems more helpful to represent ǫ with the digraph ao /ɒ/. In Norwegian it tends to merge with o, and in Icelandic it tends to merge with ö.)
Take for example, the name for the Danish island Sjælland (from earlier Sioland). It literally means "sea land". English renders this name as Zealand. So, Sjælland is a native endonym, while Zealand is a foreign exonym.
A number of names in the Greyhawk setting are of interest to Norse identity. Here are what the endonymic names might look like.
NORSE ENDONYM (Foreign Exonym): MEANING
Frosti (Frutzi): freeze doer
Hrímsk (Cruski): frost-ian
Norðdómar (North Kingdoms): north courts
Risi (Rhizia): giant
Snæi (Schnai): snow doer
Svali (Suel): cool, chill
Þullundr (Thillonria): grove of sages
Ǫrn, Arn- (Arn): eagle
Jǫtunumheimr (Jotnumheim): surrounding realm of the jǫtunn
Skaðahár (Skandahar): high one of damage
Sæi (Zeai): sea doer
If using an English keyboard, two letters (digraph) can represent certain Norse letters for informal contexts.
ð: dh, d
þ: th, t
æ,ä,ę: ae
ø,ö,ǿ,œ: oe
ǫ,å: aa
(I dont see it done, but it seems more helpful to represent ǫ with the digraph ao /ɒ/. In Norwegian it tends to merge with o, and in Icelandic it tends to merge with ö.)
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Matrix Sorcica
Hero
For you.
I have to say, you have a way of expressing yourself in a very "people must", "WotC must" way that I find rather infuriating.
Everything you're posting on this subject is your opinion, and I think it would suit you to add "I think that.." and "in my opinion..." before uplifting what you say to facts
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Yaarel
🇮🇱 🇺🇦 He-Mage
So far the thread attends the northern edge of the 2024 Greyhawk map, to understand the meaning of its latitudes, and who the ethnicities are that inhabit these latitudes, plus the ethnicities who live farther north beyond the map.
For me a surprise is how populated the lands are that are north from the 2024 Greyhawk map, essentially everything going on across the latitudes that are north from Ireland.
At this point, the thread can attend the western edge of the 2024 Greyhawk. The latitudes of Baklun can also surprise.
The continent is Oerik. Baklun is the westernmost region of the Flanaess subcontinent. South of Baklun is Suel. Together, 2024 Greyhawk identifies them as Western Flanaess. From the 1983 latitudes map that maps out these two regions, we can see all of the boundaries of the subcontinent of Flanaess.
Geographically, Baklun is sometimes the Baklunish Basin, presumably a river basin that collects the streams from the surrounding mountains. A large sea wedges from the north into the heart of Baklun. Greyhawk fandom calls this sea the Gulf of Ghayar (but I am unsure of the names canonicity in Oerth traditions).
D&D Greyhawk traditions from 1980 on portray Baklun as somewhere in Asia. In some ways the identity is specific, the "sultans" and "pasha" are the reallife religion of Islam with its reallife Muslim-majority ethnicities. On the other hand, these are imperialist titles that could be ruling over lands anywhere. Thus the reference remains vague.
The term sultan is Arabic, literally meaning "control", whence an Islamic governmental authority, and applies to various Islamic governments around the world. It approximates the meaning of a monarch, whether of an empire or a local region, but specifies an Islamic ruler whose lineage doesnt descend from the emperor (khalifa). A sultanate might be anywhere.
The Arabic term khalifa (English caliph), literally meaning a succession, specifies an Islamic emperor who descends from Muhammad. More than one have existed simultaneously in reallife history. Thus even the title caliph appearing in Greyhawk, would not necessarily specify a location.
The Islamic title pasha specifies the Ottoman Empire of reallife Turkiye (Turkey). Note there is a similar sounding Persian title for a monarch, padeshah, however the term "pashalik" can only be Ottoman. A pasha is an Ottoman title for a military commander, whence the assignment to serve as the governor of a conquered imperial province. Because of the imperialism, the province might be anywhere. In reallife, the Ottoman provinces are all west of the Caspian Sea. However, in a fantasy setting, a what-if scenario can locate an Ottoman province anywhere, and it might be an exclave that lacks territorial contiguity with the rest of the empire. Thus the title pasha cannot specify a location.
With the above in mind, here are the latitudes of Baklun itself. Its spans from 20° latitude to 50° latitude. The cities of Zeif, Ekbir and Selmur (Tusmit), are roughly around latitude 45°.
Here is a map of reallife Asia. The areas in red are the latitudes that correspond to those within the 1983 latitude map above. The area between the red areas corresponds the latitudes of Baklun itself. These are candidates for the many Baklun ethnicities.
In reallife history, Muslim empires extended rapidly across Asia. Here is a simple map showing areas of Asian Islamic imperialism in year 632 CE.
:max_bytes(150000):strip_icc()/IslamToday-56a042243df78cafdaa0b684.jpg "https://fthmb.tqn.com/RSiVM3KCh6MBt8eLSRoCto2ZiqQ=/768x0/filters:no_upscale():max_bytes(150000):strip_icc()/IslamToday-56a042243df78cafdaa0b684.jpg")
The Muslim empires expanded from Saudia, Iraq, and Turkey into western China. Plus exclaves managed to take hold in Myanmar and Malaysia into Indonesia. Note, the Islamic Turks who conquered what is today Turkiye derive from central Turkmenistan south from southwest Kazakhstan. Roughly comparable, the rise of Islam corresponds the early medieval period, while the Ottoman Empire of Turkiye corresponds the renaissance period.
In the earlier map, Baklun corresponds the area of Asia between the red areas, while the references to the sultans and pasha correspond to somewhere in the Islamic areas above. With regard to the 2024 Greyhawk map, the cities of Zeif, Ekbir and Selmur (Tusmit), are roughly around latitude 45°, across Asia. Note, as the D&D Oerth traditions understand it, Baklun doesnt include China (Celestial Imperium), nor Saudi Arabia (Erypt).
If one looks north from Mongolia, one can see Lake "Baikal". Despite being north from the 1983 latitude map, I suspect this important lake inspires the name "Bakl-un", as Gygax peruses a reallife atlas while thinking about Flanaess. This lake and the Altai Mountains east of Mongolia are part of a wide swath of Asia famous for its Indigenous shamanism. Not all of Baklun is Muslim monotheism. Much of it is the local Indigenous Asian religions, including animism, various forms of Buddhism, and probably Hindu and Daoist styles of polytheism.
With references to Turkiye in the west and north from Mongolia in the east, Baklun potentially represents the full span of the continent of Asia. Meanwhile the latitude 45° corresponding Kazakhstan may be relevant to understand the cities of Zeif, Ekbir and Selmir. Perhaps the title pasha relates to Turkmenistan south of it, if not from Turkey itself.
Even so, caution about location is necessary. The Muslim rulers may correspond these Muslim-majority areas. However, if conquerors of Zeif, Ekbir and Selmir, the citizens of these cities may be Nonmuslim Indigenous Asians elsewhere.
For me a surprise is how populated the lands are that are north from the 2024 Greyhawk map, essentially everything going on across the latitudes that are north from Ireland.
At this point, the thread can attend the western edge of the 2024 Greyhawk. The latitudes of Baklun can also surprise.
The continent is Oerik. Baklun is the westernmost region of the Flanaess subcontinent. South of Baklun is Suel. Together, 2024 Greyhawk identifies them as Western Flanaess. From the 1983 latitudes map that maps out these two regions, we can see all of the boundaries of the subcontinent of Flanaess.
Geographically, Baklun is sometimes the Baklunish Basin, presumably a river basin that collects the streams from the surrounding mountains. A large sea wedges from the north into the heart of Baklun. Greyhawk fandom calls this sea the Gulf of Ghayar (but I am unsure of the names canonicity in Oerth traditions).
D&D Greyhawk traditions from 1980 on portray Baklun as somewhere in Asia. In some ways the identity is specific, the "sultans" and "pasha" are the reallife religion of Islam with its reallife Muslim-majority ethnicities. On the other hand, these are imperialist titles that could be ruling over lands anywhere. Thus the reference remains vague.
The term sultan is Arabic, literally meaning "control", whence an Islamic governmental authority, and applies to various Islamic governments around the world. It approximates the meaning of a monarch, whether of an empire or a local region, but specifies an Islamic ruler whose lineage doesnt descend from the emperor (khalifa). A sultanate might be anywhere.
The Arabic term khalifa (English caliph), literally meaning a succession, specifies an Islamic emperor who descends from Muhammad. More than one have existed simultaneously in reallife history. Thus even the title caliph appearing in Greyhawk, would not necessarily specify a location.
The Islamic title pasha specifies the Ottoman Empire of reallife Turkiye (Turkey). Note there is a similar sounding Persian title for a monarch, padeshah, however the term "pashalik" can only be Ottoman. A pasha is an Ottoman title for a military commander, whence the assignment to serve as the governor of a conquered imperial province. Because of the imperialism, the province might be anywhere. In reallife, the Ottoman provinces are all west of the Caspian Sea. However, in a fantasy setting, a what-if scenario can locate an Ottoman province anywhere, and it might be an exclave that lacks territorial contiguity with the rest of the empire. Thus the title pasha cannot specify a location.
With the above in mind, here are the latitudes of Baklun itself. Its spans from 20° latitude to 50° latitude. The cities of Zeif, Ekbir and Selmur (Tusmit), are roughly around latitude 45°.
Here is a map of reallife Asia. The areas in red are the latitudes that correspond to those within the 1983 latitude map above. The area between the red areas corresponds the latitudes of Baklun itself. These are candidates for the many Baklun ethnicities.
In reallife history, Muslim empires extended rapidly across Asia. Here is a simple map showing areas of Asian Islamic imperialism in year 632 CE.
The Muslim empires expanded from Saudia, Iraq, and Turkey into western China. Plus exclaves managed to take hold in Myanmar and Malaysia into Indonesia. Note, the Islamic Turks who conquered what is today Turkiye derive from central Turkmenistan south from southwest Kazakhstan. Roughly comparable, the rise of Islam corresponds the early medieval period, while the Ottoman Empire of Turkiye corresponds the renaissance period.
In the earlier map, Baklun corresponds the area of Asia between the red areas, while the references to the sultans and pasha correspond to somewhere in the Islamic areas above. With regard to the 2024 Greyhawk map, the cities of Zeif, Ekbir and Selmur (Tusmit), are roughly around latitude 45°, across Asia. Note, as the D&D Oerth traditions understand it, Baklun doesnt include China (Celestial Imperium), nor Saudi Arabia (Erypt).
If one looks north from Mongolia, one can see Lake "Baikal". Despite being north from the 1983 latitude map, I suspect this important lake inspires the name "Bakl-un", as Gygax peruses a reallife atlas while thinking about Flanaess. This lake and the Altai Mountains east of Mongolia are part of a wide swath of Asia famous for its Indigenous shamanism. Not all of Baklun is Muslim monotheism. Much of it is the local Indigenous Asian religions, including animism, various forms of Buddhism, and probably Hindu and Daoist styles of polytheism.
With references to Turkiye in the west and north from Mongolia in the east, Baklun potentially represents the full span of the continent of Asia. Meanwhile the latitude 45° corresponding Kazakhstan may be relevant to understand the cities of Zeif, Ekbir and Selmir. Perhaps the title pasha relates to Turkmenistan south of it, if not from Turkey itself.
Even so, caution about location is necessary. The Muslim rulers may correspond these Muslim-majority areas. However, if conquerors of Zeif, Ekbir and Selmir, the citizens of these cities may be Nonmuslim Indigenous Asians elsewhere.
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Parmandur
Book-Friend, he/him
Soooo, to get into the weeds here, only Shia Muslims belive the Caliph needs to be a Sayyid, die to their belief in an inherited mantle of infallibility. Some other sneliebe the Caliph should be a Hasemite, abroader category than descendent of Muhamed, ut historically a lot of recognized Caliphs are not (the Ottomans, in particular). It really just means the recognized head of the Dar al-Islam.
But for Greyhawk, it just means the leader has levels in Cleric, as there is no Islam in Baklun. It isn't specified which Baklunish deity that the Caliph of Ekbir serves in 1980/1983 (open to correction @Snarf Zagyg ), but I think later it becomes "canonically" Al-Ackbar who was noy on the dwity liat for the box ser, who is an ascended Human (which is kind of Yikes, no wonder it's not in the DMG).
I think it is fundamentally a mistake to associate Latitude coordinates with what is being gone for with cultural comparisons here, because again, these are not 1-to-1.
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