Hold the line and reach weapons (simon STAY OUT!!!)

[officeronin]

You could try Hold the Line combined with Improved Trip(or just with Improved Trip + a reach weapon like a glaive)...when he charges trip him and smack him while he's on the ground, if the trip works the monk has to attack from a prone position and I"d argue wouldn't get the double damage from Flying Kick, but even if you ruled he would get the double damage, a prone attack is made at a penalty.

Instead of Hold the Line, I went for Knockdown with the glaive. When he crosses the threatened area, I smack him. If it's for more than 10 points, I get the trip attempt, and he goes down. Since I'm not in his reach, he can't do much... He falls down, I bash him again on my turn, and 5' step back, waiting for him to attempt to close.

Note: we also use the fighting styles out of Quintessential Fighter, and the 3rd level ability in Ralix is that it foils the opposed trip. Way cool!

The way I read it, Hold the Line on a polearm wielder is only really useful if you're being charged by opponents with reach. True?

OfficeRonin

 

[Hypersmurf]

The way I read it, Hold the Line on a polearm wielder is only really useful if you're being charged by opponents with reach. True?

No.

A charge is required to cover a minimum of 10 feet. So with ten foot reach, at the point he enters your threatened area, he has to be charging already.

-Hyp.

 

[officeronin]

No.

A charge is required to cover a minimum of 10 feet. So with ten foot reach, at the point he enters your threatened area, he has to be charging already.

-Hyp.

I wasn't relying on Hold the Line -- just plain old AoO movement with Plain Jane Combat reflexes. Fact is, Hold the Line seems of really limited utility for a polearm wielder.

OfficeRonin

 

[Hypersmurf]

I wasn't relying on Hold the Line -- just plain old AoO movement with Plain Jane Combat reflexes. Fact is, Hold the Line seems of really limited utility for a polearm wielder.

Oh, I see.

Well, it triggers 5' further away than the standard movement AoO. So it works best in combination with a feat that lets you keep them there - Movement Check, Stand Still, Knockdown, Improved Trip... so they need to trigger another AoO to close with you next round.

With the normal AoO, they can often get away with a 5' step to close for melee next round, and you don't get to hit them as often.

-Hyp.

 

[AuraSeer]

I think the movement-based AoO happens at the same point as the Hold The Line AoO. I mean, they have to, don't they?

Your reach weapon only threatens the square 10' away, so that's the square the opponent must be standing in when you swing at him. If one of the attacks got triggered at 15', or at 5', you wouldn't be able to take it because you don't threaten.

Am I making sense or is the sugar rush playing games with my neurons again?

 

[Hypersmurf]

I think the movement-based AoO happens at the same point as the Hold The Line AoO. I mean, they have to, don't they?

Well, the HtL AoO occurs as they enter the space. The standard one occurs as they leave the space.

I'm on my way out the door, so I don't have time to look up the other feats to see if that makes a difference

-Hyp.

 

[AuraSeer]

Right...
One happens after they enter the space.
The other happens before they leave the space.
But they still have to be in the space.

The only time there'd be a difference is if they are just moving to that space-- not through it. But HTL only works when the target is charging. So either both AoOs happen at the same time, or neither does.

 

[Mahali]

Re: Re: Hold the line and reach weapons (simon STAY OUT!!!)

Add Movement Check from Kingdoms of Kalamar. If your spiked chain movement AoO hits, the monk stops in place. Can't hit what you can't reach...

-Hyp.

Monte and Bruce said this as has Skip. Although in the guise of The Sage all Skip as ever affirmed is the rule book wording.

 

[Pax]

i'm trying to create a tough fight that will force the ftr/monk to come up with tactics that don't rely on his flying kick.

so something that will give an AoO against his charge is the first one.

Any ideas for more?

Use the AoO for a Trip attack.

Or add Improved Trip / Knockdown. Do loads of damage to the monk as he closes to 5' ... literally swat him from the air ... and then his flying kick should be rendered useless (all the penalties, none of the benefits ... can't flying kick formteh ground at the target's feet). Not to mention his being prone atyoru feet; the next action is "ready action: smack the monk if he tries to stand up".

Also note, a Readied attack is not an Attack of Opportunity. "Ready action: nail the first fool of an enemy who gets within 5 feet of me" would give you that second attack.

Five-foot step away and re-Ready each round. Laugh as the monk gets AoO -and- smacked (stand up and step 5' != move only 5' ... standing up from prone is also a MEA).

 

[AuraSeer]

(stand up and step 5' != move only 5' ... standing up from prone is also a MEA).

The limitation on a 5' Step is based on the distance you move, not on action type. Taking an MEA does not disqualify you from also making a 5' Step that round.

Example: You can draw a weapon (MEA), ready a shield (MEA), and take a 5' step, all in the same round. You would not draw any AoO at all for doing so.

"Stand Up From Prone" is listed as a MEA. By the book, the monk could stand up, take his 5' Step, and take his one attack on whoever tripped him. If you don't like that idea, you could rule that standing up counts as a Move action, and thus prevents a 5' Step; however, IMHO that would be a house rule.