How to Legally Overcome Flatfooted

[diaglo]

Probability???

Soft cover is only +4. Plus, if the Wizard is flat-footed (as per the discussion), he loses any Dex bonuses. So, the scenario is a fair one for hitting.

the thief is assuming the wizard gets a dex bonus? isn't that a little metagamey


+4 is 20%. i don't know when giving up 20% is an acceptable risk.

plus he (the thief) may or may not be unarmed now.... after the throw.

 

[KarinsDad]

In scenario #1, the bandit leader can only charge out in the first round if he is aware of the party on the other side. If he is not aware, then the crossbow goes off when the door opens and the leader is revealed. If he is aware, then he has prepared his charge the same as the crossbow has trained itself on the door, and therefore he has a chance of getting his charge off before the party acts. Furthermore, initiative should probably be rolled before the door is opened, especially if both parties are aware. #1 can delay until #2's initiative, or ready opening the door when #2 says "GO!", having readied his shot.

The point is not what happens if the Bandit leader is unaware. That is a different scenario.

The point (as has been the point of this entire thread) is that when both sides are aware, weird stuff can happen in round one that does not happen in latter rounds under the EXACT same conditions.

All because characters can be flat-footed in round one, even though they are aware of opponents and might have been for a considerable length of time.

That is the problem being discussed.

And not only is it a problem, but an entire set of abilities have been designed into the game to avoid/take advantage of this (uncanny dodge, combat reflexes, sneak attack, etc.) and hence, it becomes a nonsensical issue versus balance issue.

My original post was an attempt to find an "in rules" way to avoid that problem if players make a concerted effort to avoid it.

The rules already allow you to avoid "nonsensical" situations by simply starting combat whenever two parties sense that they are hostile enemies. But that means rolling initiative. Granting everyone a free readied action at all times before initiative is neither necessary, good, nor supported by the rules.

He gave you a nonsensical situation supported by the rules and you denied it by going off on the tanget. It is still a nonsensical situation if the Bandit leader wins initiative over the Crossbowman (where he charges 60 feet and attacks before the bowman fires, even though both were prepared and aware).

 

[Thanee]

Maybe the wizard looks pretty lithe, so a Dex bonus could be assumed...

And why should that be metagaming to assume flat-footedness at the start of a combat (if you meant it that way)?
You react faster, so you aim for your target, which does not seem to be as fast.


About the flat-footedness in general... yeah, it can be weird sometimes, especially with surprise in these situations, where everyone is in full view (and talking or whatever) at the start of the combat.

Could be solved maybe by not giving a surprise round (makes little sense, unless it's really a surprise (like a trusted ally opens up on you - but not when you are opposed by people you do not know, when you are automatically cautious)), but rather a +2 (or even +4) circumstance bonus (DM's best friend rule) to initiative to the one character (or group if they planned it and everyone waits for a certain sign/situation to start) that wants to start the mess, i.e. the fighter drawing the sword and getting jumped by the soldiers example on page 1.

And I think it's totally fair, that everyone is flat-footed then. When suddenly the action starts, not everyone will react equally fast.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

the thief is assuming the wizard gets a dex bonus? isn't that a little metagamey


+4 is 20%. i don't know when giving up 20% is an acceptable risk.

plus he (the thief) may or may not be unarmed now.... after the throw.

You seem to be talking about trivial nit issues that are not really relevant to the thread and the problem being discussed. I'm not sure why. Do you have a relevant to the thread point, or do you just feel like going off on a tangent?

 

[KarinsDad]

About the flat-footedness in general... yeah, it can be weird sometimes, especially with surprise in these situations, where everyone is in full view (and talking or whatever) at the start of the combat.

Could be solved maybe by not giving a surprise round (makes little sense, unless it's really a surprise (like a trusted ally opens up on you - but not when you are opposed by people you do not know, when you are automatically cautious)), but rather a +2 (or even +4) circumstance bonus (DM's best friend rule) to initiative to the one character (or group if they planned it and everyone waits for a certain sign/situation to start) that wants to start the mess, i.e. the fighter drawing the sword and getting jumped by the soldiers example on page 1.

I think the crux of the problem is that flat-footed = surprise (for all intents and purposes), hence, when opponents are aware of each other in round one, they are still effectively surprised (i.e. they get all of the disadvantages of surprised, lose Dex bonus, cannot AoO, do not get to act yet).

The simplest house rule solution is to not allow flat-footed in round one, but then that weakens Barbarians and Rogues and even Fighter types (if they took Combat Reflexes).

 

[diaglo]

You seem to be talking about trivial nit issues that are not really relevant to the thread and the problem being discussed. I'm not sure why. Do you have a relevant to the thread point, or do you just feel like going off on a tangent?

see one. do one. teach one.

i haven't seen the point yet in this thread.

you disagree with the premise of the rules. go make a house rule. and post it in house rules.

you want to wrap the idea around in your head about why the thief should go first. i think many in this thread have said why

 

[Thanee]

One option, which you could do as a DM is to assume combat started at the usual point, when everyone met, and the talk between the thieves and the party happened in combat rounds. But you just roll the initiative once the action starts, since it's pretty pointless to talk in turns of combat rounds. Then noone will be flat-footed, since it's actually round 27 or something already.

Of course, then everyone will want to delay, so turns would take place in mutual order.


It really is simplest to accept it as is and make use of all those nice abilities, which can make you "better" while flat-footed.

Bye
Thanee

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

and unless he wants to be a matyr. the assassin dies in all of those scenarios. pretty st00pid short lived assassin once he attacks. all the guys slice and dice him.

You know, I reckon a suicidal assassin is unlikely to be high level. High level characters are usually marked by a healthy sense of self preservation. Then again, he could be an assassin that just recently developed a deathwish - might have gone religious and wants to absolve his soul of sins by one great act of 'goodness'.

Mind you, I think that this example merely highlights that ultimately in D&D, the King is always a high level character. Anyone else is merely throne minding.

 

[Ferrix]

The DMG is pretty explicit about not allowing ready actions outside of combat, but it's much less explicit about when combat should start. I think it's perfectly fair to say that once two opponents become aware of each other, either side can choose to initiate combat by taking any combat action, including readying an action. This state should persist until both sides cease to be aware of the other, or both sides stand down.

In fact the DMG gives an example much like this, where two parties become aware of each other but cannot immediately interact (pg23). In this case, actions start tracking by rounds, and each side can do whatever they want to prepare until they come into contact, at which point initiative is rolled. The question is, does combat begin when initiative is rolled, or when the parties become aware? I'm not aware of anything explicit in the RAW that says it can't be the latter.

The second part here I can completely agree with, however they already know they are hostile. In a situation where two parties are aware of each other and one decides to initiate combat via a readied action, initiative dice roll first.

 

[Gantros]

In scenario #1, the bandit leader can only charge out in the first round if he is aware of the party on the other side. If he is not aware, then the crossbow goes off when the door opens and the leader is revealed. If he is aware, then he has prepared his charge the same as the crossbow has trained itself on the door, and therefore he has a chance of getting his charge off before the party acts. Furthermore, initiative should probably be rolled before the door is opened, especially if both parties are aware. #1 can delay until #2's initiative, or ready opening the door when #2 says "GO!", having readied his shot.

This doesn't solve the problem that in scenario #1, the bandit has a chance to miraculously charge 60 ft. and attack, while in scenario #2, which is identical except for the somewhat arbitrary determination that combat has already started, the bandit has no chance at all.

Furthermore, this is not what the DMG says to do. It says that if both parties are aware of each other but cannot interact, then start tracking rounds and allow both parties to prepare as they wish until interaction becomes possible. In other words, they can take combat-style actions (cast spells, drink potions, take moves, etc.), but they do not check initiative until they come into contact. And if you do this, you get the situation I described.

If you think about it, it makes sense... what's the point of determining initiative to determine order of action if the two parties cannot or will not interact with each other? In scenario 1, order of actions and who readied what when is unimportant until someone opens the door.

The rules already allow you to avoid "nonsensical" situations by simply starting combat whenever two parties sense that they are hostile enemies. But that means rolling initiative. Granting everyone a free readied action at all times before initiative is neither necessary, good, nor supported by the rules.

Actually, the rules provide for a way to effectively start combat without rolling for initiative, under certain conditions. Those "conditions" are when two hostile parties are aware of each other, and either cannot interact or choose not to do so right away. Initiative is only rolled when one party attempts to engage the other in some way, or puts themselves in harm's way. I believe this allowance can be used to solve the problem presented in this thread without breaking any rules or house-ruling anything.