D&D General If faith in yourself is enough to get power, do we need Wizards and Warlocks etc?

[Minigiant]

No, it doesn't. At least not in 3e or 4e, and 2e apparently with the Priest book. 5e went back to deities only, but that seems like an oversight

It still needs actual power.

The power for your Heal spell comes from somewhere.

You need to have link to an item power or create your own.

That's a cleric man. It's zealot level faith that gets the attention of the god

It's next level. Again a normal cleric is powered by a god which is able to choose to give them power on their own whims.

A cleric of a philosophy has to tap into a philosophy that has power.

And if you're The only cleric if a philosophy that means you have to power that philosophy on your own.

Even in D&D regular people don't just believe themselves into divine power.

I mean dragons are genetically predisposed to think they are the hottest @#$& in the world to the point that they don't even trust their own children because their children come from them and therefore must be almost as awesome as they are. And dragons can't just cast heel harm and raise dead and flame strike via their own hubris.

You have to be a special person. A special level of fanatical zealous crazy. Like literally lawful stupid and extremely hardheaded for your philosophy.

 

[Maxperson]

It still needs actual power.

The power for your Heal spell comes from somewhere.

You need to have link to an item power or create your own.

That is your homebrew rule.

A cleric of a philosophy has to tap into a philosophy that has power.

Not per any RAW that has existed in an edition that had a philosophy.

Even in D&D regular people don't just believe themselves into divine power.

That hasn't been true since before 1e.

 

[Minigiant]

That is your homebrew rule.

No.

3e and 5e both say you need a divine rank to grant spells.

A philosophy needs a divine rank in order to grant you spells. Therefore if you power a philosophy by itself, your faith in that philosophy has to be great enough to give a philosophy a divine rank.

 

[Kurotowa]

Faith strong enough to touch the divine isn't easy to cultivate. It's not just saying the words or the power of positive thinking, you have to really believe and let that belief shape your thoughts and actions. If it was easy then every priest would be a Cleric, and that's simply not the case.

Doing that without a god to focus your belief around is harder. There's no scripture or precepts, no clear image to be your mnemonic. It's easier to put your faith in a person than an abstract, and gods are those people. It takes a singular obsession to cultivate a divine spark around an abstract ideal.

Becoming a Cleric purely on faith in yourself is taking that obsession and raising it to the level of extreme narcissism. Who among us isn't aware of our own faults and haunted by our past mistakes? A person with an iron clad belief in their own divine inner nature, to the point of being able to conjure divine magic from it, is either an especially enlightened sage or the most obnoxiously self-absorbed a-hole you've ever met.

I don't know if I could play the sort of character that would plausibly qualify as a Cleric of self-belief. I don't know if I'd want to play with that sort of character, even if another player could pull it off. The option exists for those terminally allergic to pretend worshiping a god, yet who still want to play a Cleric. That doesn't mean it exists as an easy path to power for every character in the setting.

 

[Alzrius]

3e and 5e both say you need a divine rank to grant spells.

My memory is failing me, where does 5E say that?

 

[Minigiant]

My memory is failing me, where does 5E say that?

DMG page 11

 

[Maxperson]

No.

3e and 5e both say you need a divine rank to grant spells.

Wrong. GODS need a divine rank to grant spells. There's a major difference between a god and a philosophy. Philosophies in 3e had no divine rank.

A philosophy needs a divine rank in order to grant you spells.

It literally can't have a divine rank. Those are explicitly for deities.

Here is the 3e language

"In this chapter, we introduce the game mechanics that make deities work, starting with the most fundamental: divine rank.
Divine rank is, at its essence, what sets deities apart from mortals."

Edit: here is further proof from the 3.5 PHB. Note that it says OR a source of divine power, so it's absolute fact that the cause does not have to have divine power. It can be either, or.

"Some clerics devote themselves not to a god but to a cause or a source of divine power."

 

[Tonguez]

Still needs power.

And without deities, your faith has to power.

Do you realize how nutzo fanatical you have to power a philosophy into giving it divine power by yourself?

At least the lone cleric of a god has a creature with divine ranks which stored power and might have a portfolio or domain to siphon from.

The lone cleric of a philosophy is "back away from slowly" territory.

Because such a person has such unwavering zealous faith that they are able to create miracles and is most likely completely crazy.

The crazy ones become paladins

 

[Minigiant]

The crazy ones become paladins

Paladins collectively power an oath and only get half casting.

A sole cleric of a philosophy is a full caster and therefore twice as crazy than a whole order of paladins.

 

[Scribe]

Faith strong enough to touch the divine isn't easy to cultivate. It's not just saying the words or the power of positive thinking, you have to really believe and let that belief shape your thoughts and actions. If it was easy then every priest would be a Cleric, and that's simply not the case.

Doing that without a god to focus your belief around is harder. There's no scripture or precepts, no clear image to be your mnemonic. It's easier to put your faith in a person than an abstract, and gods are those people. It takes a singular obsession to cultivate a divine spark around an abstract ideal.

Becoming a Cleric purely on faith in yourself is taking that obsession and raising it to the level of extreme narcissism. Who among us isn't aware of our own faults and haunted by our past mistakes? A person with an iron clad belief in their own divine inner nature, to the point of being able to conjure divine magic from it, is either an especially enlightened sage or the most obnoxiously self-absorbed a-hole you've ever met.

I don't know if I could play the sort of character that would plausibly qualify as a Cleric of self-belief. I don't know if I'd want to play with that sort of character, even if another player could pull it off. The option exists for those terminally allergic to pretend worshiping a god, yet who still want to play a Cleric. That doesn't mean it exists as an easy path to power for every character in the setting.

I've always assumed that Clerics and Paladins, would be fanatical in the extreme.