Improved Rapid Shot feat

[James McMurray]

For the record, I don't think that IRS is an over powered feat. But then again, when I'm playing an archer I use RS evey chance I get. I play an epic archer in an arena and IRS just wasn't worth the cost of a feat.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I don't allow IRS in my game. I think it's too powerful, personally.

It's hard to compare the power of ranged attacks with melee attacks. Ranged attacks have three significant advantages: they don't require the user to close, they can snipe at extreme range (over a quarter mile!), and they are much more likely to make full attacks.

 

[Scion]

If this feat is ok then why didnt they make a feat that cancled out large portions (read cancles -2 for each attack) of the twf penalties? It would actually be a weaker feat than the IRS. So if people feel that IRS is ok then this feat for twf would be fine as well

I havent seen IRS in play yet.. but it does fill me with a bit of trepidation.. how many people have seen it in play at the mid levels? (9 - 13 or so) That extra +2 to all ranged attacks could be very nice indeed..

 

[Darklone]

If this feat is ok then why didnt they make a feat that cancled out large portions (read cancles -2 for each attack) of the twf penalties? It would actually be a weaker feat than the IRS. So if people feel that IRS is ok then this feat for twf would be fine as well

Monte Cooks AU has this rule... effectively you fight at your normal BAB with two weapons and the appropriate feats. But it would be really overpowered if you would get as many additional offhand attacks as soon as in 3.5 (ITWF and GTWF).

 

[James McMurray]

Improved Two-Weapon fighting etc. are the twf counterparts to IRS, and they are much more powerful when you only consider full attack actions.

 

[Korak]

I don't allow IRS in my game. I think it's too powerful, personally.

It's hard to compare the power of ranged attacks with melee attacks. Ranged attacks have three significant advantages: they don't require the user to close, they can snipe at extreme range (over a quarter mile!), and they are much more likely to make full attacks.

It all depends on what kind of campaign you run. I can recall maybe 10 encounters at best in all my DnD playing that involved encounter distances of over 300 feet. Most encounters in the campaigns I've been involved in begin at distances in the 50-120 ft range. Most of those are indoors where turns in corridors and other combatants block line of sight to the juicy targets. Being able to deliver a full attack while being outside the melee range of an opponent is indeed powerful. However, in most encounters (in my experience) it is a fleeting advantage. Furthermore, no archer full attack comes close to a melee powerhouse full attack. Oh, and don't forget the revamped deflect arrows feat that is now automatic negation of the arrow with the best chance to hit. IRS could only be overpowered in a low magic world where all encounters happen on sunny days across wide open plains.

I would love to see some numbers in support of the opinion that IRS is overpowered, especially since there is no equivalent of power attack for ranged combat (in core rules). I have played both melee damage characters and ranged characters in 3.0 and 3.5. The change in relative power was absolutely astounding. Archery was too good in 3.0, but IMO it has been way over-nerfed.

 

[Darklone]

I tend to have many outdoors adventures with PCs not yet or barely able to D-Door. The group (spellcaster heavy) tends to rely on fireballs and other spells though... so I had two puny CR 5 manticores nearly kill half of the level 8-10 party lately. Luckily, the groups single archer druid took them out pretty fast.

 

[Nail]

A few numbers...not a complete analysis

A player (DrSpunj) and I are discussing whether or not the Feat: Improved Rapid Shot is too powerful. I was asked to provide some numbers. Here they are:

Improved Rapid Shot vs. Greatsword

Two human Ftr 9, 32 point buy, appropriate wealth, assume +4 ability boost item, +3 weapon, then miscellaneous (and unaccounted for) magic loot.

Archer: Str 16, Dex 24, Con 14, all else 8
Feats: (human) Weapon Focus (L. Comp. Bow)
(1st lvl) Point Blank Shot
(1st Ftr) Precise Shot
(2nd Ftr) Rapid Shot
(3rd lvl) (*any*)
(4th Ftr) Specialization (L. Comp. Bow)
(6th lvl) Manyshot
(6th Ftr) (*any*)
(8th Ftr) Imp. Rapid Shot
(9th lvl) Greater Weapon Focus
Attacks: +22/+22/+17 (Imp. Rapid Shot w/in 30 ft)
Damage: 1d8 + 3(Str) + 2 (Spec) + 3 (magic weap)
Ave. Damage per Atk: 12.5 hp

Greatsword: Str 24, Dex 16, Con 14, all else 8
Feats: (human) Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
(1st lvl) Power Attack
(1st Ftr) (*any*)
(2nd Ftr) (*any*)
(3rd lvl) (*any*)
(4th Ftr) Specialization (Greatsword)
(6th lvl) (*any*)
(6th Ftr) (*any*)
(8th Ftr) Greater Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
(9th lvl) Imp. Critical (Greatsword)
Attacks: +21/+16
Damage: 2d6 + 10(Str*1.5) + 2 (Spec) + 3 (magic weap)
Ave. Damage per Atk: 22 hp

___Key for Table below:___
Average Damage per full attack with a Greatsword (Gr)
Average Damage per full attack with a Bow (Bow)

AC / Gr / Bow
17 / 50 / 39
18 / 50 / 39
19 / 49 / 39
20 / 48 / 39
21 / 46 / 38
22 / 45 / 37
23 / 44 / 36
24 / 41 / 36
25 / 38 / 34
26 / 36 / 32
27 / 33 / 30
28 / 30 / 28
29 / 28 / 25
30 / 25 / 23
31 / 22 / 21
32 / 20 / 19
33 / 17 / 17
34 / 15 / 15
35 / 12 / 13
36 / 9 / 11
37 / 8 / 9

Analysis (FWIW) to follow.....when I've got time.

<EDIT> Fixed damage calc, used +3 weapon

 

[Nail]

Okay...I've got 13 minutes before I lecture, so...that counts as "time" doesn't it?

On the above numbers, you'll note I gave the archer a number of advantages.

• The archer gets 50% more attacks than the greatsword weilder - that relative percentage goes down after level 10.
• The archer is able to use Point Blank Shot (within 30').
• The greatsword weilder isn't using Power Attack.
• The greatsword weilder has an "odd" (+7) Strength bonus, which gives him less Strength bonus damage than an "even" Str bonus.

As I see it, the greatsword weilder does significantly better than the archer at ACs typical of this EL range (8 to 12). Moreover, the greatsword weilder has more feats to spend on whatever he likes...the archer has spent most of his feats to get this good.

....Okay, outta time. Food for thought: The reason the greatsword weilder does more damage (on average, per round) is because of his 1.5 Str bonus *and* his Improved Critcal feat. Without the Improved Critical feat, the two of them are dead even at high AC, and the greatsword wins at low AC.

 

[Nail]

Blast! I made a mistake in the damage part ....

....<EDIT> Mistake fixed.