Initiating a surprise round

[Kzach]

It's my belief that something has to initiate a surprise round and whatever that act is, it has to be surprising.

So for example, the act of opening a door when one side knows the other side is in the room, and the other side doesn't know this side is entering.

But the act of opening the door does not become a PART of the surprise round. It simply STARTS the surprise round. So the person who opened the door would still get to act in initiative order during the surprise round. The act of opening the door doesn't count as his single action during the surprise round.

In another, more specific, example, my character surprised everyone (party and enemies). By fooling the party into thinking I had betrayed them, and fooling the NPC's into thinking I had aligned with them. I was in the mix of NPC's, facing the party. The leader said that if I helped kill the party, I'd be accepted into their ranks. I said, "Very well," at which point the entire party screamed out disgust at my betrayal.

Then I unleashed a Cloud of Darkness that enveloped myself and several of the enemy. Now, as I understand it, this surprised the enemies and the party. I had used a Bluff check earlier to indicate to one of the party that I was still on their side. So him and I should be the only ones to act in the surprise round.

But the DM and the group are saying that the Cloud of Darkness counts as my action DURING the surprise round.

Which one is it?

 

[Danceofmasks]

And if you had chosen to use, instead of a cloud of darkness, a stab in the back of the neck ... does it count as your surprise round action?
Your beliefs aside, consistency is the key.

 

[Amaroq]

But the DM and the group are saying that the Cloud of Darkness counts as my action DURING the surprise round.

That's exactly what I would rule, too.

The PHB rule is pretty explicit: "Some battles begin with a surprise round. A surprise round occurs if any combatants are unaware of enemy combatants’ presence or hostile intentions. For example, if you fail your Perception check to notice concealed enemies, you’re surprised. Or if supposed allies spring an attack and you failed your Insight check to notice the attackers’ traitorous intentions, you’re surprised. But if any of your allies made their Perception or Insight checks, they’re not surprised.

When any combatants achieve surprise, they act in initiative order during the surprise round. Surprised combatants don’t act at all during the surprise round."

For your situation, I'd say you initiate the combat not by "unleashing the Cloud of Darkness", but by starting to draw a weapon/implement, etc.

We roll opposed Bluff/Insight checks to see if the other NPC's are surprised; we've previously determined that only one of the PC's is "clued in", great.

Say the NPC's all fail their Insight checks; you've got the drop on them.

You and your PC friend roll Initiative; one of you goes first. It might even be him. Either way, that character only gets a single standard action.

. . .

Its kinda like a gunslinger saying "I shoot him". The surprise round actually starts when he begins reaching for his holster ... presumably he has the "Quick Draw" feat, being a gunslinger ... so his standard action in the Surprise round is to actually draw and fire his weapon.

He may not successfully get the shot off before somebody else (who isn't surprised) does ... if that person rolled better Initiative than him.

. . .

Incidentally, if there was a tense standoff between the two hostile sides who are fully aware of each other, I'd have ruled that neither member of either party could be surprised when hostilities broke out.

 

[Danceofmasks]

I'm just guessing here, but in the OP's scenario there are multiple hostiles in close proximity.
Therefore, weapons should already be out, and backstabbing someone as part of a surprise round isn't out of the question (without quick draw).

 

[Ryujin]

It's my belief that something has to initiate a surprise round and whatever that act is, it has to be surprising.

So for example, the act of opening a door when one side knows the other side is in the room, and the other side doesn't know this side is entering.

But the act of opening the door does not become a PART of the surprise round. It simply STARTS the surprise round. So the person who opened the door would still get to act in initiative order during the surprise round. The act of opening the door doesn't count as his single action during the surprise round.

In another, more specific, example, my character surprised everyone (party and enemies). By fooling the party into thinking I had betrayed them, and fooling the NPC's into thinking I had aligned with them. I was in the mix of NPC's, facing the party. The leader said that if I helped kill the party, I'd be accepted into their ranks. I said, "Very well," at which point the entire party screamed out disgust at my betrayal.

Then I unleashed a Cloud of Darkness that enveloped myself and several of the enemy. Now, as I understand it, this surprised the enemies and the party. I had used a Bluff check earlier to indicate to one of the party that I was still on their side. So him and I should be the only ones to act in the surprise round.

But the DM and the group are saying that the Cloud of Darkness counts as my action DURING the surprise round.

Which one is it?

An event will predicate whether the situation involves surprise or not. In this case your Bluff roll was what created the surprise situation and Cloud of Darkness was your action during the surprise round.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I was in the mix of NPC's, facing the party.

This is all the description I need to say there is no surprise round at all, regardless of what happens or who is fooled. All that is irrelevant. Both sides are aware of the other and can reasonably expect hostilities. Allowing some "hidden" action is really a huge mistake because then surprise simply boils down into who shouts out that they attack first. That's really a terrible way to run the game.

 

[Mengu]

Perfect situation for Bluff vs Insight to determine who gets to act in the surprise round. You make your check, initiatives are rolled, and the surprise round begins. In the surprise round, you use Cloud of Darkness. Your ally who made the Insight check, gets to act as well. Then regular rounds begin.

There isn't an extra surprise round. You don't get two surprise actions.

Take the following example... Two drow archers lurk in the shadowwood. They see a couple elves walking by. The elves fail their perception checks to see the drow. Initiative is rolled. Drow get a surprise round and shoot the elves. Then the regular round begins.

If you say the drow shooting the elves begins combat and then the drow get another surprise round to shoot the elves again, and then if the drow get initiative in the regular round, that's 3 times the drow will have attacked the elves before the elves get to do anything. Ambushes are bad enough, they don't need to be worse.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Yeah, the fact that everyone was ready for hostilities means that there's a normal initiative, not a surprise round.

It would be different if it was a peaceful negotiation and you suddenly decided to attack.

 

[DracoSuave]

Yeah, the fact that everyone was ready for hostilities means that there's a normal initiative, not a surprise round.

It would be different if it was a peaceful negotiation and you suddenly decided to attack.

However, that readiness for hostilities DOES mean that initiative has already been rolled, technically.

Which means that either you're simply acting on your turn and starting the chaos, ooorrrrr, you've delayed up till that point (as your turn has already passed) and are simply inserting your turn at that time.

Either way, you DO get the first shot in, no problem.