Intensify Spell is an Epic WASTE!!!!

[drnuncheon]

Well, Duh! However youve just spent two feats versus Empower doing almost the same with 1.

Wrong. See, to get the most out of Empower, you have to spend feats too: you have to keep buying Improved Spellcasting Capacity. That's why I made such a big deal of using the same number of feats for both people in my examples.

Read that again. You use the same number of feats. Same level. Different feats. More damage. I don't know how much more clearly I can phrase that.

J

 

[Marshall]

Wrong. See, to get the most out of Empower, you have to spend feats too: you have to keep buying Improved Spellcasting Capacity. That's why I made such a big deal of using the same number of feats for both people in my examples.

Read that again. You use the same number of feats. Same level. Different feats. More damage. I don't know how much more clearly I can phrase that.

J

No, all you pointed out was that Enhance is good on Fireball. When you switch to DBF and Horrid Wilting Enhance gets less and less effective.

And its two ISC feats to add another Empower or 5 feats(4 ISC + Enhance) to add another Enhance.

BOOM! End of Story.

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

Wrong. See, to get the most out of Empower, you have to spend feats too: you have to keep buying Improved Spellcasting Capacity. That's why I made such a big deal of using the same number of feats for both people in my examples.

You should read my examples above, although they do get involved. Basically they show mathematically that Enhancing and Empowering up fireball does not defeat straight up Empowering of Horrid Wilting.

Also note that Horrid Wilting has a higher save over fireball, so the damage ratio gets even more skewed.

 

[drnuncheon]

Is anybody actually reading my examples?

I don't think you are. Marshall, HEL - go back and look.

I have proven Enhance's effectiveness with Fireball vs. Fireball.
I have proven Enhance's effectiveness with Delayed Blast Fireball vs. DBF.
I have proven Enhance's effectiveness with Horrid Wilting vs. Horrid Wilting.

Here's one example. If you scroll up you'll see where I got this from. Please note that each caster in this example is using exactly the same number of feats. They are the same level. Everything is equal about them except the way that they have spent their feats.

Horrid Wilting vs. Horrid Wilting

Empower, Imp MM, ISC(x19) - 21 feats, 28th level spell
* Horrid Wilting: 25d8 + 250d8 (20x Empower) = 1237 hp
Empower, Maximize, Enhance, Imp MM (x3), ISC(x15) - 21 feats, 24th level spell
* Horrid Wilting: 280 (35d8 max) + 245d8 = 1382.5 hp
Empower, Maximize, Enhance(x2), Imp MM (x3), ISC(x14) - 21 feats, 23rd level spell
* Horrid Wilting: 360 (45d8 max) + 270d8 = 1575 hp
Empower, Maximize, Enhance(x3), Imp MM (x3), ISC(x13) - 21 feats, 22nd level spell
* Horrid Wilting: 440 (55d8 max) + 275d8 = 1677 hp
Empower, Maximize, Enhance(x4), Imp MM (x3), ISC(x12) - 21 feats, 21st level spell
* Horrid Wilting: 520 (65d8 max) + 260d8 = 1690 hp
Empower, Maximize, Enhance(x5), Imp MM (x3), ISC(x11) - 21 feats, 20th level spell
* Horrid Wilting: 600 (75d8 max) + 225d8 = 1612 hp

Notice that the spell uses Horrid Wilting as the example. By your argument, Marshall, this would be less effective than Empower because each Empower adds 12.5d8 of damage, while each Enhance adds only 10d8.

But you are not looking far enough. After using Enhance once, you can then put Empower onto the spell - and each Empower now adds 17.5d8. If you use Enhance twice each Empower will add 22.5d8. You will get more damage from the same amount of feats.

I have run the numbers. It works with or without Improved Metamagic, and I will be happy to post as many different examples as it takes to convince you. I can even make a nice chart if that will help.

J

 

[drowdude]

Re: Is anybody actually reading my examples?

I have run the numbers. It works with or without Improved Metamagic, and I will be happy to post as many different examples as it takes to convince you. I can even make a nice chart if that will help.

J

You are possessed of far more patience than I , drnuncheon

 

[Marshall]

Re: Is anybody actually reading my examples?

But you are not looking far enough. After using Enhance once, you can then put Empower onto the spell - and each Empower now adds 17.5d8. If you use Enhance twice each Empower will add 22.5d8. You will get more damage from the same amount of feats.

You are spending 5 feats to add each Enhance, Empower is spending 2. If IMM works enough to get them both to 1[Footnote 1], than Enhance is simply less versatile than the ISC slot that Empower uses.

I have run the numbers. It works with or without Improved Metamagic, and I will be happy to post as many different examples as it takes to convince you. I can even make a nice chart if that will help.

Without IMM the 2:1 advantage of Empower to Enhance, not to mention the 4:5 advantage in feat expenditure, Enhance falls.

At a 40 dice cap.
Empower will add 20dx for 2 slots.
Enhance will add 25dx for 4 slots+1 feat(10dxMax is the same as 20dx + 5dx).

40>25 Once Enhance or the Base spell reaches that 40 die cap, Its done.

Footnote 1: Its unclear wether 3 IMM would cause stacking the second Enhance to be 2 slots or 5. The Special section of Enhance indicates that you add 4 levels every stack and then add IMM reduction. Meaning 2xEnhance would be 4+4-3=5 rather than (4-3)+(4-3)=2.

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

Re: Re: Is anybody actually reading my examples?

You are spending 5 feats to add each Enhance, Empower is spending 2. If IMM works enough to get them both to 1[Footnote 1], than Enhance is simply less versatile than the ISC slot that Empower uses.

Nice job Marshal, we are on the same wavelength.

The fact is, everytime he burns an Epic Feat slot on IMM, we can pick ISC and cast at a higher level than they can and ultimately increasing our damage potential. drnuncheon's example did not take that into consideration.

For example, by the time he's spent 4 feat slots on IMM and Enhance, we've spent 4 slots on ISC, therefore while he is Enhancing and Epowering to 15th level, we are straight Empowering to 19th.

Empower wins.

 

[Magius del Cotto]

You're missing something...

Spell level. Yes, it's been thrown around, but I don't think you guys really understand the importance of it. Yes, you can have a 21st level Horrid Wilting, but it will still be countered by an unenhanced 9th level dispell. Thus, you'd be taken down to 17th level spells before you can actually do something (barring high int bonuses and whatnot), whereas the MM intensive guy (without taking any Improved Spell Capacity) has 8 chances (for a wizard, more for a Sorceror) to cast the enhanced, empowered (x3), and intensified Fireball.
Also, you don't need to have higher level slots. What good is your uber-empowered 21st level spell, if it's countered by a single ninth level spell? Especially if you only have one of them. It's the classic argument of breadth vs depth: you can take high-level slots, but have fewer slots/level; or you can take lower level slots, and have more of them. All you really need is a 9th level spell to take out any MMed spell.
[edit] You also only need to take Enhance Spell once every ten levels for any spell with a cap over 20 (at the beginning, twice for 10+, thrice for less). You can either focus on IMM or ISC for all the extra slots between those (7 feats every 10 levels after 21, remember). Yes, eventually, you'll need to build up higher level slots, but those slots (IMO) should be depth based, not bredth based (more chances to cast a powerful spell = more likely to cast it). [/edit]
Adios.

 

[Marshall]

Re: You're missing something...

Spell level. Yes, it's been thrown around, but I don't think you guys really understand the importance of it. Yes, you can have a 21st level Horrid Wilting, but it will still be countered by an unenhanced 9th level dispell. Thus, you'd be taken down to 17th level spells before you can actually do something (barring high int bonuses and whatnot), whereas the MM intensive guy (without taking any Improved Spell Capacity) has 8 chances (for a wizard, more for a Sorceror) to cast the enhanced, empowered (x3), and intensified Fireball.

HUH!?!?

Oh yeah back to DrN's math. Your WIZ also has to be 75th,65th,55th etc, etc, Whereas the Empower guy is doing it all at 25th.

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

Re: Re: You're missing something...

Oh yeah back to DrN's math. Your WIZ also has to be 75th,65th,55th etc, etc, Whereas the Empower guy is doing it all at 25th.

Ewww-Weee got him there