D&D 5E Is 5E Special

[EzekielRaiden]

Considering my comment originally was my ruminations on the idea of 5e being special and essentially saying “right idea, right time like the early years” then your comment was a bunch of hot air to refute me because you thought I was calling it special. The misunderstanding is on you to figure out here because your brain is the one that inserted the word “special” into my post. My only “failure” could be wading into a 60 page post and not being buggered enough to read the whole blamed thing to know what you’re arguing with everyone about at this juncture.

I never said you failed to do anything--neither the word "fail" nor the word "failure" appears anywhere in my post--so I'm not sure where you got that idea from.

 

[Nikosandros]

It's probably the best idea in D&D since ascending AC...and probably before.

IMO, there is no comparison between the two. Ascending AC is completely identical to descending AC. In WotC's editions it makes the design more compact since AC can be simply defined as the DC of attack rolls, but it is otherwise functionally completely equivalent.

Advantage, on the other hand, is truly different from just using modifiers.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

IMO, there is no comparison between the two. Ascending AC is completely identical to descending AC. In WotC's editions it makes the design more compact since AC can be simply defined as the DC of attack rolls, but it is otherwise functionally completely equivalent.

i have to disagree with a pro and a con...

in 2e at least we had a range of 10--10 (so20pt spread) something no WotC version has duplicated... either in 3e where 30 or 40 pt spread were possible with some creatures could have 8 and some epic PCs could have 30's or 40's easy. and in 5e now seeiing a monster with over 20 (old AC 0) is so rare most of us could not name them... CR 20+s have 17 18 or 19 ACs

ease of table use... even the playerss that had the best chance at doing the "did I hit" math at the table had an adjusted thac0 on there sheet (example I have a 17 thac0 and +3 to hit from magic +2 from str and +1 from specialization so instead of writing 17 +6 I would right 17 (11)) and would take at least a little time to do the math "I rolled a 14 my adjusted Thac0 is 11 so I hit a -3" but even people not good at math and little to no prep can do I rolled 14+6 I hit a 20." quicker

 

[teitan]

I never said you failed to do anything--neither the word "fail" nor the word "failure" appears anywhere in my post--so I'm not sure where you got that idea from.

Oh I was putting ideas in your post since it seemed fair game

 

[Eric V]

I guess what I struggle with is this.

Is it really hard to believe that most players find 5e easier to just sit down and play than nearly any other edition?

No. I doubt anyone is finding that hard to believe, especially with the "nearly" qualifier in there.

But the question asked was: Is there something special about 5E that created this moment (of intense popularity)?

And people just look at all the other factors and think that no, it wasn't the simplicity of the game that created the moment, but rather these other factors.

That doesn't mean it didn't contribute at all, just not necessarily in a unique and or majority-responsibility way.

And...that's it. Because everything is just pure conjecture. We'll never know, because we have no idea how to isolate these other factors, we lack a palantir, etc. The question is basically just asking about people's instincts over the whole thing. Any claim to actual knowledge here is just a statement about the claimant.

 

[clearstream]

No. I doubt anyone is finding that hard to believe, especially with the "nearly" qualifier in there.

But the question asked was: Is there something special about 5E that created this moment (of intense popularity)?

And people just look at all the other factors and think that no, it wasn't the simplicity of the game that created the moment, but rather these other factors.

That doesn't mean it didn't contribute at all, just not necessarily in a unique and or majority-responsibility way.

And...that's it. Because everything is just pure conjecture. We'll never know, because we have no idea how to isolate these other factors, we lack a palantir, etc. The question is basically just asking about people's instincts over the whole thing. Any claim to actual knowledge here is just a statement about the claimant.

Some people. The other factors contributed, and there was something special about the game.

Have we reached the trading of assertions part of the discussion? That said, I think your last thought is right: no one has yet suggested any convincing way to isolate and prove which are the contributing factors. I have looked at the %age positive and %age negative review rates for a range of RPGs, and read the testimonials, and it seems to me that it is something about the game design that is "special" in driving success for a wide audience over and above contextual factors. It's form and function, as well as position. I look at the design, and as I (like most here) have a thorough knowledge of the previous editions, it looks to my expert eye to be an especially nice piece of design work. Is it perfect? No. Is it special? Yes. At least in my view. And it's not alone in contemporary RPGs that are also special (in their different ways.)

 

[Umbran]

Oh I was putting ideas in your post since it seemed fair game

Mod Note:
Could you please move this interaction to something constructive, or let it drop? Thanks.

 

[Eric V]

Some people. The other factors contributed, and there was something special about the game.

Have we reached the trading of assertions part of the discussion? That said, I think your last thought is right: no one has yet suggested any way for isolating the factors: it's just down to intuitions.

Sigh.

Yes, of course "some." Yeesh! When I wrote "people", I was referring to the people that (at least seemed to be) the ones that @doctorbadwolf thought found it "hard to believe that most players find 5e easier to just sit down and play than nearly any other edition."

 

[clearstream]

Yes, of course "some." Yeesh! When I wrote "people", I was referring to the people that (at least seemed to be) the ones that @doctorbadwolf thought found it "hard to believe that most players find 5e easier to just sit down and play than nearly any other edition."

Got it! And see my further thoughts in the edited version.

 

[Lazvon]

So, if we are at trading of assertions, is this thread dead?

 

[clearstream]

A few examples of contemporary TTRPGs that I would call special (not a complete list, just a few of those on my mind at this moment)

5th edition D&D
Torchbearer 2
Stonetop
Thousand Year Old Vampire
We are but worms
Artefact

And honestly, there are dozens of new and indie TTRPGs doing things that should rightly be counted "special". Maybe some intuit "special" to mean "more special". I don't think so. It's a description that can apply in different ways to different RPGs. A large number of indie TTRPGs in particular wouldn't exist if 5e hadn't expanded the audience. Many wouldn't be findable and therefore fundable by their intended audiences were it not for distribution platforms like Itch.

Should I therefore refuse to describe those indie games as "special" just because they couldn't have thrived without current cultural and commercial context? That seems to amount to one of the main lines of argument in this thread.

 

[Deset Gled]

So, if we are at trading of assertions, is this thread dead?

That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die.

 

[Eric V]

So, if we are at trading of assertions, is this thread dead?

I mean, the whole thread has just been the trading of assertions.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

But the question asked was: Is there something special about 5E that created this moment (of intense popularity)?

And I think if one agrees that the traits I listed are both present in 5e and contribute to a game’s popularity, it’s absurd to suggest that the the nature of 5e isn’t a major factor in how big it is right now and how long it’s been growing into the mainstream.

No. I doubt anyone is finding that hard to believe, especially with the "nearly" qualifier in there.

Eh I’ll happily remove the qualifier, frankly. Basic or Essentials or whatever are all missing one or more of the traits that 5e combines and balances.

And people just look at all the other factors and think that no, it wasn't the simplicity of the game that created the moment, but rather these other factors.

That doesn't mean it didn't contribute at all, just not necessarily in a unique and or majority-responsibility way.

I just find it hard it to view as reasonable, the idea that 5e is mostly just lucky or whatever. Like, no, a different game would not be in the same place.

And...that's it. Because everything is just pure conjecture. We'll never know, because we have no idea how to isolate these other factors, we lack a palantir, etc. The question is basically just asking about people's instincts over the whole thing. Any claim to actual knowledge here is just a statement about the claimant.

Eh, I think we can judge assertions more or less reasonable, at the very least.

I mean, the whole thread has just been the trading of assertions.

This. Most threads are.

 

[Eric V]

And I think if one agrees that the traits I listed are 1) both present in 5e and 2) contribute to a game’s popularity, it’s absurd to suggest that the the nature of 5e isn’t a major factor in how big it is right now and how long it’s been growing into the mainstream.

1) Are they present moreso than other versions of the game? I don't know. My instinct says that's probably true, but I haven't done a deep dive analysis to see. The fact that the 4e structure made a pretty accessible and popular board game series warns me to to just accept my above instinct as true.

2) Contribute to what degree, though? That's the question. If they contribute only a little bit, then it is not a "major factor in how big it is right now and how long it’s been growing into the mainstream."

That's what people are arguing about. Degrees. You might find it absurd that some don't consider the nature of the game a big factor, but others find the absurdity is in overemphasis on the game rules and not the outside factors.

 

[Oofta]

i have to disagree with a pro and a con...

in 2e at least we had a range of 10--10 (so20pt spread) something no WotC version has duplicated... either in 3e where 30 or 40 pt spread were possible with some creatures could have 8 and some epic PCs could have 30's or 40's easy. and in 5e now seeiing a monster with over 20 (old AC 0) is so rare most of us could not name them... CR 20+s have 17 18 or 19 ACs

ease of table use... even the playerss that had the best chance at doing the "did I hit" math at the table had an adjusted thac0 on there sheet (example I have a 17 thac0 and +3 to hit from magic +2 from str and +1 from specialization so instead of writing 17 +6 I would right 17 (11)) and would take at least a little time to do the math "I rolled a 14 my adjusted Thac0 is 11 so I hit a -3" but even people not good at math and little to no prep can do I rolled 14+6 I hit a 20." quicker

Requiring a cheat sheet is not exactly a stellar endorsement.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Requiring a cheat sheet is not exactly a stellar endorsement.

nor was it meant to be...

I talk about wanting to go back to TSR d&d all the time (so does about half my group and 2 or 3 people I just met at a con a few weeks ago and are now in our group texts have talked about it too) but the number 1 reason for me and something I hear CONSTANTLY agreed with is 'except thac0'

 

[Mezuka]

It's special because its design managed to create a bridge between 2e players and 3e players.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Are they present moreso than other versions of the game?

Is each trait present to a greater degree than whatever other edition focuses on that trait? Probably not, which is a good thing. That’s the point. Balance of elements.

HeroQuest is very easy to play. And very fun! It very much holds up, and I’m quite glad I got the recent remake of it.

But it ain’t ever gonna blow up like 5e dnd, because it doesn’t have most of the other elements, and it’s very focused on that “quick and easy play” experience.