Knife of Dreams - SPOILERS!

[Starman]

Incidentally, remember the thing about there being two extra, unoccupied chairs at the table? Taim and Alviarin for Chosen in '08?

I'm not sure Alviarin would make the cut. She seems to have fallen from her height of power. I think strength in the power would count for a lot, too. I don't remember her being very strong, but I could be mistaken. I think she might end up being a Dreadlord, though.

Taim, I think, has a much better chance.

 

[Samnell]

I'm not sure Alviarin would make the cut. She seems to have fallen from her height of power. I think strength in the power would count for a lot, too.

We know that the Aes Sedai of modern days set their rankings by the power. We don't know if this is so for the Shadow. When Mesaana appears in disguise to Alviarin, she hides her strength. That could be a general part of the disguise, though. Anyway, given how the Shadow operates, I suspect aptitude at completing assignments, surviving intrigue, and raw personal power are all factors. Remember that the case for the Foresaken being extremely strong to a random Randlander works like this: In the Age of Legends, channelers had unspeakable power. Some of them went over to the Shadow. The strongest of these (who survived, and happened to be having a Coffee Hour at Shayol Ghul when Lews Thern and his gentleman callers arrived and thus got bound in the dungeon dimension) are the Foresaken. While certainly strong, a Foresaken need not necessarily be earth-shatteringly strong. Moghedien appears to be an even match for an untrained Nynaeve and she's one of the strongest the Aes Sedai have seen in a thousand years. The Moggy isn't marked up as being exceptionally powerful among the Foresaken except for in the World of Dreams.

All of that said, the modern AS do rank by strength. Alviarin managed to become Keeper to Elaida. Some of that is surely intrigue strength and political interest, but she's no certianly no slouch in modern terms of Power either. She has enough juice to Travel. Of course, fair point that she's not the force she once was. But Shaidar Haran is impressed enough with her.

Taim, I think, has a much better chance.

There's also the issue of that Taim certainly would be in the running...but who else? What other evil, channeling figures have been of high visibility in recent books? Jordan seems to be getting his act together, so I doubt we'd see the sudden appearance of another potent channeler like we did with Cadsuane. None of Liandrin's brood have been great successes, and Moggy shielded her back in Book 5.

 

[Starman]

We know that the Aes Sedai of modern days set their rankings by the power. We don't know if this is so for the Shadow. When Mesaana appears in disguise to Alviarin, she hides her strength. That could be a general part of the disguise, though. Anyway, given how the Shadow operates, I suspect aptitude at completing assignments, surviving intrigue, and raw personal power are all factors. Remember that the case for the Foresaken being extremely strong to a random Randlander works like this: In the Age of Legends, channelers had unspeakable power. Some of them went over to the Shadow. The strongest of these (who survived, and happened to be having a Coffee Hour at Shayol Ghul when Lews Thern and his gentleman callers arrived and thus got bound in the dungeon dimension) are the Foresaken. While certainly strong, a Foresaken need not necessarily be earth-shatteringly strong. Moghedien appears to be an even match for an untrained Nynaeve and she's one of the strongest the Aes Sedai have seen in a thousand years. The Moggy isn't marked up as being exceptionally powerful among the Foresaken except for in the World of Dreams.

All of that said, the modern AS do rank by strength. Alviarin managed to become Keeper to Elaida. Some of that is surely intrigue strength and political interest, but she's no certianly no slouch in modern terms of Power either. She has enough juice to Travel. Of course, fair point that she's not the force she once was. But Shaidar Haran is impressed enough with her.

I agree that the biggest factor is probably going to be whether or not the person can accomplish the tasks the Dark One has for them. However, Alviarin seems to have mostly failed in the end. Now, she's just getting strapped every day and is shunned by everyone else in the Tower. How much can she really accomplish anymore? I think she'll get a chance to be a Dreadlord, though. The Shadow is going to want as many of those as they can get, even if it seems Taim has trained about a hundred or so, all ready.

There's also the issue of that Taim certainly would be in the running...but who else? What other evil, channeling figures have been of high visibility in recent books? Jordan seems to be getting his act together, so I doubt we'd see the sudden appearance of another potent channeler like we did with Cadsuane. None of Liandrin's brood have been great successes, and Moggy shielded her back in Book 5.

I don't think we'll see anymore major, evil channelers. The Dark One is going to have to stick with the Forsaken he has left and Taim.

 

[Samnell]

I don't think we'll see anymore major, evil channelers. The Dark One is going to have to stick with the Forsaken he has left and Taim.

So who is the other spare chair for? Since the Foresaken seem to meet in a place deliberately created each time they go there (what with all the talk of view walls and such) I have my doubts that it was left over from the Myrdraal mixer held in the same room two nights before.

A chair for Taim and a chair for who else? That's what I'm getting at about the scarce odds of a new evil channeler of significance popping up. Sure Alviarin has blown it on controlling Elaida, but her brief seems to have been generally sowing dissension and division in the White Tower. On that level, the Egwene chapters of KoD scream her massive success. I also suspect that Elaida is so earth-shatteringly stupid (even for a Jordan character) that she can do most of her own screwing up without any help from a Black Ajah Keeper.

 

[Starman]

Well, if Sammael really is back, it could be for him. I don't know. I guess I just have a hard time picturing Alviarin on a level with the rest of the Forsaken.

My prediction for the other chair is...Bela. There's just something not right about that horse.

I also suspect that Elaida is so earth-shatteringly stupid (even for a Jordan character) that she can do most of her own screwing up without any help from a Black Ajah Keeper.

Yeah, you're right. She is painfully stupid.

I have my doubts that it was left over from the Myrdraal mixer held in the same room two nights before.

Dude, you should have been there. It was a blast!

 

[Samnell]

Well, if Sammael really is back, it could be for him. I don't know. I guess I just have a hard time picturing Alviarin on a level with the rest of the Forsaken.

I don't think Sammael is back. I think someone probably a Foresaken is using his appearance to commandeer Shadowspawn for the attack on Rand. It probably has to be a channeler to control Myrdraal and Moridin seemed pretty sure it was a male channeler. Our suspects are few, though I suppose it could be Aran'gar. The mystery to me is why cart the Shadowspawn through the Ways to nail Rand under an assumed identity. The Dark One said it's ok to kill Rand again. Semirhage's plan seems to suggest that capture is preferred still, but not required at all. Perhaps the disguise was just to avoid punishment for a kill without attempt to capture. Alternatively, Taim could be involved for his own reasons. But how Taim would know what Sammael looked like is beyond me.

Anyway, Jordan seems to be of the opinion that Sammael is dead.

http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.1_forsaken.html

My prediction for the other chair is...Bela. There's just something not right about that horse.

You know, after so many books I would really get a kick out of Bela being casually killed by a Trolloc as it ran by.

Yeah, you're right. She is painfully stupid.

I'm not totally sure that Alviarin was even placed with the intent of her being Keeper. It might be nice and satisfying for the head of the Black to be Keeper, but mission-critical? Possibly not. Anyway, her POV scenes show a lot of irritation over her current public status but no sign of any setback in the Shadow's plans.

Dude, you should have been there. It was a blast!

Some friends and I were wrecking up a Lenscrafters, just because.

 

[Starman]

I don't think Sammael is back. I think someone probably a Foresaken is using his appearance to commandeer Shadowspawn for the attack on Rand. It probably has to be a channeler to control Myrdraal and Moridin seemed pretty sure it was a male channeler. Our suspects are few, though I suppose it could be Aran'gar. The mystery to me is why cart the Shadowspawn through the Ways to nail Rand under an assumed identity. The Dark One said it's ok to kill Rand again. Semirhage's plan seems to suggest that capture is preferred still, but not required at all. Perhaps the disguise was just to avoid punishment for a kill without attempt to capture. Alternatively, Taim could be involved for his own reasons. But how Taim would know what Sammael looked like is beyond me.

Anyway, Jordan seems to be of the opinion that Sammael is dead.

http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.1_forsaken.html

I thought I remembered Jordan saying something like that. You're right, though, that it seems really weird for anyone to impersonate Sammael, especially after waiting this long. You would think that this would have been mentioned before if it was happening, not to mention the question of why anyone would want to. I guess we'll find out in the next book.

You know, after so many books I would really get a kick out of Bela being casually killed by a Trolloc as it ran by.

If only George R.R. Martin was writing the series...

Some friends and I were wrecking up a Lenscrafters, just because.

 

[drothgery]

- Odds are it was Taim trying to pass himself off as Sammael (or just as a Forsaken). He's about the only one who might be able to pull it off, and wouldn't be more effective as himself.

- Rand is only tolerable in small doses (and has been since about book four), so I'm glad his appearances were short and to the point.

- Nynaeve reminded me of why she was my favorite character for a long time.

- Mat & Tuon are great. Quite possibly the best couple involving major characters that Jordan has set up; only other candidate is Nynaeve & Lan (mostly because Rand's relationships don't really click, being too driven by prophecy; Egwene & Gawyn had hardly any time together; Perrin and Faile have their moments, but Berelain tends to throw monkey wrenches into that relationship; Siuan and Gareth Byrne haven't really done anything, and the same goes for Moiraine and Thom).

 

[Samnell]

- Rand is only tolerable in small doses (and has been since about book four), so I'm glad his appearances were short and to the point.

Rand's been redeeming himself for me since Winter's Heart. I got powerfully sick of him in Crown of Swords, but my incandescent hatred of most of the female characters (whether they started out interesting or have been brainless harridans all along) tends to drown out his odd quirks.

 

[Dragonblade]

I haven't read the book yet and spoilers don't bother me, but I think I will love this book. But I will say that I actually consider Rand my favorite character, just barely edging out Mat.

So more Rand is always a plus for me. Ever since book 4 he has been one of the only major characters to fully embrace what he is and what he thinks must be done. While all of the other characters spend most of their time whining, wringing their hands, trying to avoid prophecy, or jockeying for power, only Rand has been on a steady course the whole time.

"No truce with the shadow," always struck me as a profound statement of moral clarity amidst the confusing morass of conflicting emotions, goals, allegiances, and actions that plague the rest of the characters. And yet, unlike Galad, who does what he feels needs to be done and feels no guilt. Rand does what needs to be done but is plagued with guilt. He just doesn't get all angsty about it.

Has the fact that Rand and Galad are half-brothers come up at all? I think that would make for some interesting scenes.