D&D 5E Lightning Bolt should be better.

[NotAYakk]

@TheSword already covered tiny hut & I'll go into extra detail on why this is a red herring.
First off is that casters are literally linear in their scaling while fighters are not. Any mods or extra dice GWM etc on their weapon are multiplied across each attack and they get to add their strength or dex mod to those for free before even getting into class abilities like recharge on short rest action surge Fighters gain an extra attack at 5 11 & 20 then get to double that once per long or short rest & then twice per at 17... that is quadratic not linear

A core fighter, no optional rules, no magic items, no subclass in the first pass.

Uses a two handed sword and defensive fighting style, because easier math. 16 strength, increasing to 20 at level 6.

I'll ignore crits to make it easier, as they are linear.

8 fights per day, 2 rests, 3 rounds per fight.

Level 1: 10@+5 x 24 actions
Level 2: 1 action surge (x27 actions)
Level 4: 11@+6 (x27 actions)
Level 5: 22@+7 (x27 actions)
Level 6: 24@+8 (x27)
Level 9: 24@+9 (x27)
Level 11: 36@+9 (x27)
Level 13: 36@+10 (x27)
Level 17: 36@+11 (x30)
Level 20: 48@+11 (x30)

We'll stick with a foe with 21 AC who is immune to crits, just to keep it simple. Then the total damage done is:

Level 1: 60
Level 2: 67.5
Level 4: 89.1
Level 5: 207.9
Level 6: 259.2
Level 9: 291.6
Level 11: 437.4
Level 13: 486
Level 17: 594
Level 20: 792

That is pretty damn linear.

(Fixed an error in accuracy. I used 21 AC and no crits because it let me do Damage per Action times Accuracy times Number of Actions divided by 20 to get daily damage, and I wanted a fixed AC foe to factor in accuracy effects.)

Now optional things, like items and feats and multiclass charop, can make things curve upwards. But the core game, fighters are really linear.

I mean, take a cloak of invisibility wearing level 20 fighter using a gridle of 30 strength and flaming halbard with PAM and GWF.

They hit on a 10+ for 80% accuracy 10% crit rate, 4 times per action for 1d10+2d6+20 (32.5) and 29.5 shaft once per turn (24 turns). They also get a reaction attack 1 round in 3 (so 8), say, each for 32.5.

32.5 * 4 is 130 damage per attack. 80% accuracy means 104 damage hits per attack, and 23.6 per bonus action and 26 per reaction.

At 30 actions * 104 + 24 bonus actions * 23.6 + 8 reactions * 26 it comes to 3894.4 damage, almost 5x what the baseline fighter manages.

But that is the impact of items and feats.

 

[Burnside]

My wizard found Lightning Bolt in an enemy spell book and scribed it into his spellbook thinking it wouldn't be used much. But I've found I agree with your view - it comes up more often than fireball, because the situations I can use it in are more frequent. If I were an evoker it would be different, but as a divininer, I use this more than fireball. I also think people get way too caught up in a gird and don't look for ways to use it better. Just because it's a straight line doesn't mean it has to line up going exactly north-south or east-west. You cast it any line you want from your space, and if it overlaps half a square (at least) then it hits that square. You can get a lot with it.

I actually took it as a Lore Bard for the level 6 Magical Secret and got a ton of use out of it as his "big gun" offensive spell.

(My other pick was Mass Healing Word, which turned out to be pretty much a bust. This was Tomb of Annihilation, so Revivify was off the table and so was anything requiring valuable components).

 

[tetrasodium]

A core fighter, no optional rules, no magic items, no subclass in the first pass.

Uses a two handed sword and defensive fighting style, because easier math. 16 strength, increasing to 20 at level 6.

I'll ignore crits to make it easier, as they are linear.

8 fights per day, 2 rests, 3 rounds per fight.

Level 1: 10@+7 x 24 actions
Level 2: 1 action surge (x27 actions)
Level 4: 11@+8 (x27 actions)
Level 5: 22@+10 (x27 actions)
Level 6: 24@+11 (x27)
Level 9: 24@+12 (x27)
Level 11: 36@+12 (x27)
Level 13: 36@+13 (x27)
Level 17: 36@+14 (x30)
Level 20: 48@+14 (x30)

We'll stick with a foe with 21 AC who is immune to crits, just to keep it simple. Then the total damage done is:

Level 1: 84
Level 2: 94.5
Level 4: 118.8
Level 5: 297
Level 6: 356.4
Level 9: 388.8
Level 11: 583.2
Level 13: 631.8
Level 17: 756
Level 20: 1008

View attachment 135888
That is pretty damn linear.

Looking at your level 1
, 27*3.5=84, that's a short sword not a 2 handed sword & the fighter apparently started with 10 strength. A greatsword is 2d6=average7 while a 2 handed longsword would be 4.5. are you really going to compare fighter with shortsword who dumps strength in a damage comparison or was there an oversight? Doing things like estimating number of rounds spent attacking per level only serves to obfuscate the already questionable. The attempt at math is nice but your really far off, this should help you a bit

One round averages will look like this. Fighters get an ASI at 4 6 8 12 14 16 & 19

• Greatsword (avg 2x3.5)
  • 1-4 Start with 16 strength:.2d6+3=10
  • 5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(2d6+4)=22 [awwww... a level 5 fighter with a starting greatsword is a crippling two points behind toll the dead cast by a level 20 spellcaster, fighters are sooooo oppressed by those quadratic wizards in 5e]
  • 11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(2d6+5)=36 [this is above the level 20 toll the dead by 10 points but nine levels earlier]
  • 20 still 20 strength: 4*(2d6+5=48
• Add GWM & get
  • 1-4 Start with 16 strength:.2d6+3=20
  • 5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(2d6+4)=42
  • 11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(2d6+5)=66
  • 20 still 20 strength: 4*(2d6+5=88
• Add a +1 greatsword & the numbers look like this, I'm doing the whole array since when that weapon is obtained is up for grabs & they can further improve on it
  • 1-4 Start with 16 strength:.2d6+4=11
  • 5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(2d6+5)=24
  • 11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(2d6+6)=39[this is above the level 20 toll the dead by 13 points but nine levels earlier]
  • 20 still 20 strength: 4*(2d6+6=52
• Add GWM & get
  • 1-4 Start with 16 strength:.2d6+4=21
  • 5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(2d6+5)=44
  • 11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(2d6+6)=69[
  • 20 still 20 strength: 4*(2d6+6=92
• Upgrade to a +2 greatsword & you get
  • 1-4 Start with 16 strength:.2d6+5=12
  • 5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(2d6+6)=26[this is identical to that level 20 toll the dead but fifteen levels earlier]
  • 11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(2d6+7)=42
  • 20 still 20 strength: 4*(2d6+7=56
• Add GWM & get
  • 1-4 Start with 16 strength:.2d6+5=222
  • 5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(2d6+6)=46[this is identical to that level 20 toll the dead but fifteen levels earlier]
  • 11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(2d6+7)=72
  • 20 still 20 strength: 4*(2d6+7=96
• Upgrade that+2 with something like
  Spoiler: this

  
  obtained from the cr11 trogar steelfist in chapter 3 of descent unto avernus & you get this
  • 1-4 Start with 16 strength:.2d6+5+3.5 fire=15.5
  • 5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(2d6+6+3.5 fire)=33 [this is above the level 20 toll the dead by 5 points]
  • 11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(2d6+7+3.5 fire)=52.5
  • 20 still 20 strength: 4*(2d6+7=70
• Add GWM & get
  • 1-4 Start with 16 strength:.2d6+5+3.5 fire=25.5
  • 5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(2d6+6+3.5 fire)=53 [this is above the level 20 toll the dead by 5 points]
  • 11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(2d6+7+3.5 fire)=92.5
  • 20 still 20 strength: 4*(2d6+7=110

Spoiler: here's all that with a one handed 1d8 longsword & shield

....

• 1 handed longsword(avg4.5) & shield
• 1-4 Start with 16 strength:.1d8+3=7.5
• 5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(1d8+4)=17
• 11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(1d8+5)=28.5 [this is above the level 20 toll the dead by 10 points but nine levels earlier]
• 20 still 20 strength: 4*(1d8+5)=38
• Add a +1 greatsword & the numbers look like this, I'm doing the whole array since when that weapon is obtained is up for grabs & they can further improve on it
  • 1-4 Start with 16 strength:.1d8+4=8.5
  • 5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(1d8+5)=19
  • 11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(2d6+6)=31.5
  • 20 still 20 strength: 4*(1d8+6=42
• Upgrade to a +2 greatsword & you get
  • 1-4 Start with 16 strength:.1d8+5=9.5
  • 5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(1d8+6)=21
  • 11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(1d8+7)=34.5
  • 20 still 20 strength: 4*(1d8+7=46
• Upgrade that+2 with something like
  Spoiler: this

  
  obtained from the cr11 trogar steelfist in chapter 3 of descent unto avernus & you get this
  • 1-4 Start with 16 strength:1d8+5+3.5 fire=13
  • 5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(1d8+6+3.5 fire)=30
  • 11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(1d8+7+3.5 fire)=45
  • 20 still 20 strength: 4*(1d8+7=60

The quadratic fighter comes into play in that any gains in weapon mods from both strength along the weapon itself is multiplicative. You need only look at the maximized disintegrate/meteor storm comparisons I linked earlier to see just how extreme this gets where casters never pull ahead in a meaningful fashion and they have nondamage spells all self hamstrung everywhichway as if they were far ahead in damage.

For comparison here's what happens to the damage that level 20 toll the dead cantrip you brought up before and after adding a +3 wand of the warmage
Before: 4d12=4*(6.5)=26
After: 4d12=4*(6.5+0)=26
I'm pretty sure I don't need to illustrate the lower tiers

@Mistwell ahh on the lines. I noted on the lich earlier that it was pure coincidence just picking a practically stereotypical bbeg+minions assortment. The initial goal was to show the getting stuck thing & by coincidence stumbled into the others by accident figuring I'd need to make others to show distance troubleswithout even trying. The resist+legendary resist was just an added bonus on top of the problem I wanted to show

Edit: also any time the fighter pops action surge it doubles whatever they had going that round for huge spike damage that recharges on a short rest & compares absurdly well against leveled spell burn that itself is not usually that far ahead of the fighter's at will

 

[Voadam]

Does anyone have page numbers and exact text for the line rules on hand?

Like would a diagonal five foot lightning bolt just hit the diagonal squares and go between the diagonal point ones or flare out to hit two squares every ten feet?

From Xanathar's on page 87 if you use the optional token ones it is just the one square wide at every point on the grid and you can safely shoot between two diagonally positioned allies, if it is the other way you can hit two foes in those positions.

Looking at Mistwell's figure the red line seems to only hit two opponents.

 

[tetrasodium]

Does anyone have page numbers and exact text for the line rules on hand?

Like would a diagonal five foot lightning bolt just hit the diagonal squares and go between the diagonal point ones or flare out to hit two squares every ten feet?

From Xanathar's on page 87 if you use the optional token ones it is just the one square wide at every point on the grid and you can safely shoot between two diagonally positioned allies, if it is the other way you can hit two foes in those positions.

Looking at Mistwell's figure the red line seems to only hit two opponents.

one of the red ones is the lich & that's problematic as already noted. Going by what I remember being said about wildshaped druids (the planescape torment/wildshape podcast maybe?) I think the orange one would probably hit both of the 13ac 36hp ghasts it kinda touches.

 

[Mistwell]

Does anyone have page numbers and exact text for the line rules on hand?

Like would a diagonal five foot lightning bolt just hit the diagonal squares and go between the diagonal point ones or flare out to hit two squares every ten feet?

From Xanathar's on page 87 if you use the optional token ones it is just the one square wide at every point on the grid and you can safely shoot between two diagonally positioned allies, if it is the other way you can hit two foes in those positions.

Looking at Mistwell's figure the red line seems to only hit two opponents.

Does this help?

Create a template for Lightning Bolt, 1 inch wide, 20 long. Then apply it to the grid as per XGtE (p.86): "you can lay it on the surface; otherwise, hold the template above the surface and take note of which squares it covers or partially covers. If any part of a square is under the template, that square is included in the area of effect."

 

[CleverNickName]

I only read the first post; these ideas might have already been covered but...

I've boosted the dice of Lightning Bolt to 8d8 instead of 8d6 before, and it didn't upset the apple cart. You could maybe try that route?

If "thunder and lightning" is important to you, you could split it up into 4d6 lightning damage and 4d6 thunder damage. I don't think that would cause any problems either.

 

[TheSword]

The maths of wizards damage has been thoroughly debunked by @tetrasodium ’s maths.

It really annoys me when wizards cause outrage because they can fly, or levitate. It’s magic for Pete’s sake, it is supposed to break the rules of physics. That isn’t an added benefit of being a wizard. It’s their raison d’etre.

That said. Now when a wizard casts fly... that’s their big spell cast. It’s pot shots from now on and no buffs or debuffs, no bonus damage from bigbys hand, no stoneskin. Sure you can rain fireballs from above a couple of times. Then your AC 16 is peppered with arrows, you lose concentration on your fly with an unlucky roll and you’re back on the ground, unprotected.

Familiars are hardly the be all and all to scouting. Unlike 3e they have 1-4 hp and you can only communicate with your familiar within 100ft. Which is 20 squares away. Not really all the scouting you need. Stopped by something as simple as a door.

In earlier editions you could find spells just as easily. Either from spellbooks or just buying the appropriate scroll. Saying that wizards getting a way to use their class abilities is hardly a big advantage. What in 2e did wizards not find their spells... did you have lvl 15 wizards running round that hadn’t fount an 8th level spell yet. They get 2 spells per level... out of a choice of what 20?

Concentration spells can still be interrupted and counter spelling is far easier to obtain in 5e. The loss of attacks of opportunity interrupting casting is a very minor boost. That doesn’t make wizards quadratic again. It just stops them sucking.

Have you read the ritual spells for 5e. Most are extremely circumstantial or have very minor utility. Tensers Floating Disc and alarm alarm are very minor powers.

Moving away from Vancian casting was a brave move. Though i think people seriously overestimate how far Level+Int spells go. A level 5 wizard gets 8 or 9 spells realistically. Three per spell level. That doesn’t leave a lot of flexibility.

Wizard saving throws DCs in 3e were often in the 20’s +. With a minimum of effort it was possible to have a DC of 18 at 1st level. With save or suck spells effectively incapacitating targets. Now Saves are strictly limited with very few methods of increasing beyond ASIs, which then means you’re not gaining feats. Yes that burning hands spell has an acceptable save DC now. But it isn’t actually doing anything more than it did at 1st level, it just remains an option. That burning hands is still doing 3d6 damage which is now a meager amount. Up casting is awesome but is rarely better than just using an equivalent level spell.

 

[TheSword]

To be fair, I don’t think fighters are broken but when you add increased stats, feats, better crit ranges or battlemaster abilities, action surge etc on top of their increasing multiple attacks, they are definitely more quadratic than a wizard.

 

[Lanefan]

Since 2nd ed, they have nerfed wizard spells, but they have removed almost every restriction on spellcasting.

So, two wrong make a ... bigger wrong?

The net effect is that yes, LFQW exists in 5e, though not as bad as in other editions.

LFQW doesn't bother me, and I say this having played more than a few Fighters over the years.