Low-level sorc, and a fighter/mage

(Psi)SeveredHead said:


Pure genius! One catch... don't you have to Concentrate to keep it up?

Yes, but meanwhile, you're not getting hit. And you can still fight/move while concentrating.

The wall is just one of many, many uses for Silent Image. It's a fun spell.

PC: Beware, fools! My summoned wraith will swallow your soul! (cast illusion of wraith)
Fools: Ah! A ghost! Our weapons are useless! Run away!

You can quickdraw wands?

Well, my DM let me do it. Most will. What's the difference between quickly drawing a club and quickly drawing a wand? They're both essentially sticks shoved into your belt.

Thanks for the advice. What do you do if you fight an elder xorn (CR 8, attack bonus +21, Tremorsense)? Even Mirror Image or Displacement won't help me out here.

Uh, cast Fly, then blast it with your wand of magic missile from afar?

That's a pretty specific question. And by the time you encounter an elder xorn, you'll have any number of spells and tricks up your sleeve.

I guess I have another question: do your sorcs run out of spells at low level? It seems to me that if you can cast 4 spells per day, and you go through four encounters, that you'll definitely run out of spells. I've played sorcs, but not from 1st-level before.

Of course you run out of spells. That's why you also carry a crossbow, alchemist's fire, and scrolls.

Don't worry, after four encounters your fighters will be out of HP and your cleric will also be out of spells. Just call it a day.

-z
 
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(Psi)SeveredHead said:
Two unrelated questions

1) If you're a sorcerer, what 1st-level spells should you pick? Specifically for offensive spells?

Is Shocking Grasp worth it? Has entering melee to use it been a problem?
Is Color Spray worth it? Unlike Burning Hands, it may fail to have an effect, but it is more powerful (IMO).

Has the low AC and hp been a real problem, and were you able to solve it? What if you've been surprised?

My take on sorcerors and first level spells: Shield and something else.

Pound for pound, shield is simply the best defensive spell available. It's a +7 cover bonus to your AC that will stack with everything else (because it's not easy to get cover bonusses) and it makes you immune to magic missiles.

Your second first level spell should be something semi-offensive that will scale as you advance in level.

True Strike is a good choice--at higher levels, it's useful to make sure you hit with a disintegrate and at first level firing a light crossbow every other round in combination with true strike is almost as good as magic missile (and shield doesn't stop it).

Ray of Enfeeblement isn't a bad choice--but only if you're prepared to crank the save DC with spell focus, etc. Otherwise the people it's most useful against (high fort save fighter types) will almost always make their save.

Tome and Blood's Lesser Orb spells are a good alternative to Magic Missile--particularly if you invest in point blank and precise shot as feats.

Color Spray isn't a very useful later on (although it's better than sleep).

Burning Hands is simply an amazing spell if you pick the right metamagic feats (Sculpt Spell from Tome and Blood) because it can turn into a 2nd level cone of fire. A sculpted Burning Hands is the best 2nd level offensive spell hands down. An Enlarged Burning Hands is better than most 2nd level offensive spells (although glitterdust, blindness/deafness, and Web provide competition). At first level, it's not too impressive though so, even if you plan on going that route, you might want to wait for 3rd level to pick the spell up.

Chill Touch is a good spell if you plan on going the necromancy Spectral hand touch attack route. At first level, you can stand up front and use it in melee for a bit if you have the Shield Spell and a decent con.

Shocking Grasp doesn't scale well, stay away from it--by third level, it deals less damage than Magic Missile and it has no range. It also doesn't effect multiple targets like Burning Hands. The Lesser Energy Orbs are better in almost every way.

Pick up Magic Missile at third level if you're going to get it.

As for Low AC and hit points--allocate a good score to con (14 or higher if available) and consider a toad familiar if that's not enough. There's not much you can do about low AC other than stay in the middle of the party and cast shield. (Well, you could try wearing leather armor and suck up the 10% spell failure but it probably isn't worth it). At higher levels, you can cast a multiple extended Mage Armor with your highest level spell slot available before you go to bed. By the time you hit 8th level, that will last until you camp the next day. At 10th level, you can pick up Persistent Spell (Tome and Blood) and have your Shield spell active 24/7 too.



2) For successful fighter/mages, what's the best overall strategy?

Did you try to maximize your attack bonus? Damage? AC? Is it better to use buffs, or just True Strike? Is taking Greater Magic Weapon worth it, or are you just wasting a spell slot for the day?

What sort of non-buff spells did you pick? Polymorph Other? Hold Monster? Direct Damage?

What do you do if you're surprised? Or de-buffed?

Lastly, what's the best type of wand to use?

Thanks in advance

First a warning about fighter/mage classes--they're very hard to pull off successfully. In my experience, a very optimized fighter/mage is no more effective than your average fighter or wizard. That being said, I play a fighter/wizard in Living Greyhawk who's worked pretty well.

Advice:
1. Decide whether you want to primarily be a fighter or a wizard. Fighter 1 or 2/Wizard X can work and Fighter X/Wizard 1 or 2 (also known as the "Shield Wizard") is quite effective too. A 1/1 fighter/wizard split, however doesn't provide enough fighting abiltity or enough spellcasting to be effective in either role.

2. Allocate your stats accordingly. You can afford to start off with a 14 intelligence if you're going fighter 2/wizard x. If you're planning fighter x/wizard 1 or 2, you shouldn't have more than a 12 int (unless you want expertise).

3. Specialize. If you pick Abjuration as a specialty, you can cast an extra shield, protection from arrows, dispel magic, and stoneskin per day. All you have to give up is enchantment or illusion. Other specialties can be effective too but I'm partial to abjuration.

4. Know your strengths and your limitations. You will have a lot of flexibility but not a lot of attack bonus. Make your feat choice correspond to this. My character (currently fighter 2/wizard 6) has Power Attack, Cleave, Dodge, Quickdraw, Combat Reflexes, Expertise, Scribe Scroll, and Extend Spell. His next two feats will be Expert Tactician and Persistent Spell. (If I had it to do over again, I'd skip dodge for Weapon focus (Glaive) though. My AC is very good already but my attack bonus is anemic).

5. It's easier to build a defensive fighter/wizard than an offensive one. Leather armor, a 14 dex, large shield, and the shield spell give you an AC of 23 at second level. As soon as you can get a mithril chain shirt that goes up to 25. If you get the Cat's Grace or protection from evil spells as well, that's 27. With Haste, that's AC 31. On the other hand, there's not much a wizard can do to increase his attack bonus or physical damage output--magic weapon (quite limited), bull's strength, greater magic weapon, and a few others.

6. True Strike. It's a very good spell but you have to use it tactically. If you just want to deal damage, you're probably better off attacking twice than casting true strike and attacking once--even if you power attack. In any event, the extra damage you deal that way isn't usually worth the opportunity cost of a first level spell. True strike is best used against concealed foes (negates miss chance), in conjunction with a disarm attack (it's hard to beat an opposed attack roll with a +20 bonus) and for those ranged attacks that would otherwise be impossible (an orc in armor 400 feet out, behind a tower shield, spotting for the catapults).

7. Look for synergies. Power attack/true strike is an example of this (although not a great one). Shield +real armor+real shield is an example of this. So is Darkness+Blindfight (feat) but only if the rest of your party has blindfight. Blink, Color Spray, Blindness/Deafness, and Glitterdust also have great synergy with Expert Tactician. Flaming sphere also has pretty good synergy for a low-mid level fighter/mage (Since your BAB is low, you only attack once per round which means that you have a MEA left to direct the sphere--it's the fighter/mage's version of multiple attacks). Burning Hands is also good for a mid level melee oriented fighter/mage since you'll usually be in a position to make good use of it.

8. As you can see, I favor a mix of buffs and save or screw spells with a little direct damage tossed in on the side. My character's currently known spells are: 1-Shield, Protection From Evil, True Strike, Endure Elements, Color Spray, Burning Hands, Magic Missile, Mage Armor, Alarm 2-Bull's Strength, Protection From Arrows, Resist Elements, Glitterdust, Flaming Sphere 3-Haste, Dispel Magic, Protection From Elements, Blink.
His usual spell loadout is : 0-Dancing Lights x2, detect Magic, Presdigitation; 1-Shield, Protection From Evil, True Strike, Magic Missile, Open Slot (for alarm if he doesn't need to replace another spell before evening); 2-Bull's Strength, Protection From Arrows, Glitterdust x2, Flaming Sphere; 3-Blink, Dispel Magic, Haste (x2)

I also tend to favor save or screw spells with will saves since they're not level dependant in terms of effect (like direct damage spells) and my save DCs haven't been very impressive historically. (That's what you get with a 14 starting int and no spell focus feats). Few bad guys have good will saves.

9. Debuffed? I cast Bull's strength if there's a reasonable expectation of combat in the next few hours and protection from arrows if I suspect trouble in the next hour. Those are my character's only long-term buff spell though. Usually, a round 1 haste, Shield, MEA combo is all the buffing I get.

10. Surprised? I'm just as screwed as everyone else. Combat reflexes (can take multiple AoOs while flatfooted) and a reach weapon help though.

11. Good wands? If you're the fighter x/wizard 1 or 2 then a wand of shield is a great idea. Load up on heavy armor and cast shield through the wand. Save your spells for non-combat things or true strike/Feather Fall spells (no verbal components on either).

Otherwise, a wand of magic missile never hurt any wizard. Wands of haste are nice but very expensive. Wands of Enervation would be good too if you're willing to shell out the big bucks. A wand of shield could be useful for you as well if you're worried about spell failure (or just want to use your 1st level slots for something else). In general, wand spells should be spells that don't have saves since the save DCs will be the minimum possible to cast the spell. For a fighter/mage, however, I actually think that scrolls are better--buy all sorts of utility spells on scrolls (hold portal, knock, levitate, unseen servant, etc.) That way, if you need 'em you have them. But you probably won't ever use more than one or two of each so wands would be a waste.

Best of luck.
 

(Very good post Elder-Basilisk.)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
2) For successful fighter/mages, what's the best overall strategy?
Repost from http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24083&pagenumber=2 :

Why go fighter at all? An straight arcane caster can be just as good (better, IMNSHO) as a "fighter type".
(Yes, I am serious.)

If you absolutely have to multiclass, there are good reasons to pick one level of almost any class in addition to Sor/Wiz. Any more than that, and you'll regret it later. You really want as many caster levels as you can get.

If you can use the class-books: Don't go spellsword. It gives reduced arcane spell failure in armor, but you loose too many caster levels. And since you need polymorph to be truly competitive, the supernatural channel spell ability is almost useless. Just get the still spell feat if you want to wear armor.

The dragon disciple and bladesinger classes work best if you want a fighter with some minor magical abilities. (Rather than a spellcaster with major melee abilities.) Don't take more than the one Wiz/Sor level you need to qualify.

The class-books have several feats that can be useful. Expert tactician is great for a character that uses improved invisibility in combat. Persistent spell is also nice.


I've made a sample wizard character below, using only the core books. He won't do as well on the lower levels, except as a support character (he needs better Str to do well in melee), but once he gets polymorph he'll be more than a match for any fighter. Fully buffed "Chainsaw" can take on a dragon of equal CR in a straight fight.


Barendd "Chainsaw" Balderk
Dwarven Transmuter 12

(After 12th level it's mainly "more of the same, only better".)

Note: PH, DMG and MM only.

Stats, average results from spells (32 point buy)
Str 32 (11)
Dex 15 (13)
Con 26, 18(Annis) (16)
Int 18 (16)
Wis 12 (12)
Cha 6 (8)

*Level: +2 Con
*Race: +2 Con, -2 Cha
*Toad Familiar: +2 con
*Headband, Periapt: +4 Con, +2 Int
*Bull's Strength: +7 Str (avg.)
*Cat's Grace: +3 Dex (avg.)
*Annis polymorph

Average hit points: 127.5, 4+(11*2.5)+(12*8)


Saves: Fort/Ref/Will

4/4/8 Wizard
2/2/2 Dwarf (spells)
5/5/5 Cloak
1/1/1 Luckstone
4/2/1 Stats

16/14/17 Total

Feats: 1/3/6/9/12 +2 Wizard

Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain, Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes
Extend Spell, Empower Spell

Equipment (max 88000):

4000 Headband of Intellect +2
16000 Amulet of Health +4
4000 Ring of Counterspelling (Dispel Magic)
300 Masterwork Spiked Chain
10000 Luckstone
8000 Ring of Protection +2
2000 Boots of Elvenkind
25000 Cloak of Resistance +5
9500 Boccob's Blessed Book
2000 Hat of Disguise

80800 Total (ca. 7000 left for scrolls and expensive spell components)


Typical spells in dangerous area (mostly maxed for melee):

0/1/2/3/4/5/6
5/6/6/6/5/4/3

Cantrips(5): Prestidigitation, Ghost Sound, Dancing Lights, 2x Detect Magic
1st level spells(6): 2x Mage Armor, Expeditious Retreat, 3x Shield
2nd level spells(6): 2x Cat's Grace, Alter Self, Rope Trick, See Invisible,
3rd level spells(6): 3x Haste, 2x Fly, Blink
4th level spells(5): Extended Greater Magic Weapon, Extended Nondetection, 3x Improved Invisibility
5th level spells(4): Extended Stoneskin, Teleport, Extended Polymorph Self
6th level spells(3): Tenser's Transformation, 2x Empowered Empowered Bull's Strength

Spells in bold are in effect at all times. They are cast every evening (and sometimes again later), so that the character has complete redundancy if some of the "permanent" spells are dispelled during the day. (This setup assumes that there is no time for a "buff day".)

(Note that I haven't included true strike. It's a very overrated spell, and usually only useful in very specific situations - even with power attack.)

"Regular" AC: 27 (-1 Size, +2 Dex, +10 Natural, +2 Deflection, +4 Mage Armor)
Can add Haste (+4 AC), Shield (+7 AC) and Expertise (+5 AC) for a total AC of 43.

To hit: +20/+15 (-1 Size, +11 Str, +4 GMW, +6 BAB)
Can add Haste, Improved Invisibility (+2 attack and opponent no dex), Fly (+1 higher "ground") and Tenser's Transformation (+6 BAB) to get +29/+29/+24/+19

Use blink against ethereal creatures and dragons.

Damage: 2d6 + 20 (+16 Str, +4 GMW)

Brief tactics: 20 ft. reach with the chain combined with combat reflexes ensures plenty of AoOs. Use trip attacks to keep opponents away from you. Large size and 32 Str helps on the opposed trip rolls. Use expertise on your haste action (after your regular action) - the penalty only lasts until your next action. When you go invisible the boots of elvenkind makes you almost undetectable, and nondetection can protect you from see invisible. Invisibility and the ring protects you from the main threat - dispel magic. Make sure you get the spellcasters first!
 

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