D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Remathilis]

I'm confident it's not really the point you care about, but I think this usage of 'verisimilitude' illustrates the problem with how it has the term is often used, at least on this board.

It seems that here as elsewhere, 'verisimilitude' seems intended to refer to plausibility by reference to earth standards.

That isn't how the term is typically intended to be used. Typically, it is intended to reflect the plausibility of things within their setting context. Verisimilitude is about internal consistency. As long as everyone in the setting is following the same rules for doing cool stuff, verisimilitude is maintained.

And nothing you mentioned is inherently implausible within a fantasy context. Certainly some settings are more fantastic (by reference to the real world) than others. But any or all of these things could be plausible within the proper context.

I understand that your overall point is that you're willing to sacrifice verisimilitude to get cool stuff added to the game.

I find it frustrating though that people have so badly misused or misunderstood the concept that there is a sense that this is a necessary tradeoff.

It isn't.

I'll agree it was a poor choice of word, but I wanted to get the concept of ditching a grounded, realistic world resembling a historical time in Earth's past with added magical flourishes (how D&D had attempted to depict itself in the TSR eras) for a truly fantastic almost alien world where magic is the backbone of society to the point where it is painfully common. I wanted to get that across in as few words as possible and hoped I could slide a not-quite-right word in. I admit my guilt. [emoji12]

Switching gears for a moment back to the original premise. The Elder Scrolls Online, an MMORPG I'm heavily invested in, has 7 classes: dragonknight, templar, sorcerer, nightblade, warden, necromancer and arcanist. On the surface, they resemble D&D classes in terms of theme and "role" (templars use holy light and are great healers, nightblades are masters of stealth, etc). The two interesting factors though is 1. No class is pigeonholed into a specific role (all classes can heal, tank, or DPS); and 2. All classes can be magical or martial focused, but almost no class is exclusively either. A dragonknight, for example, might slap on heavy armor and have a greatsword, but can still breath fire or summon molten weapons. The net effect is that no player class is mundane; noc mooks might not use magic but players always have access to it. You have to specifically build a character with no magical ability (I've done it) but your almost always better adding a bit of magic to your build.

I bring this up in the context of D&D because ESO has given me an idea of how a magical rogue and fighter could look. A rogue isn't a common thief, he's a master of shadow and assassination, who can summon shadow duplicates, create illusions, go invisible, and even walk though walls. A dragonknight is a warrior who calls upon the spirit of dragons to enhance their martial attacks with elemental breath, dragon scales, sharpened senses, dragon fear and even flight. They aren't mundane warriors (those are NPCs) they are a cut above.

That is perhaps the route I am willing to go. All PC classes have some built in assumption of "magic" in them to a degree. No class is purely mundane in origins or abilities. They aren't going tobe spellcasters, but I think if you remove the idea of everyman classes and embrace everyone having magical or supernatural abilities, you remove the shackles off design and can truly design interesting classes and abilities. (We might even get a good ranger for once!)

 

[James Gasik]

Better equipment is better equipment my friend.

The swordman is still mighty with a random footman sword. He/she/they aren't slaying the Avatar of Bane with it.

That's the thing. The foes go up it tier too.

Just how Robblin the Goblin isn't killing Master Leo with a rusty goblin shank. Master Leo isn't killing Koros Demigod of Tyranny with a farmer's pitchfork he just picked up of the farmer Koros just beheaded.

Now granted, there are weapons that become awesome simply because an awesome person wielded them; D&D has a plethora of Artifacts showing this is certainly the case. Some fantasy heroes are often using random weapons instead of epic legendaries, and at least one (The Grey Mouser) uses a variety of different swords, but always calls them the same thing!

I actually prefer the Earthdawn approach; as your legend grows, so does the legend of your stuff. Joyeuse or Gram certainly have an epic pedigree, but they are made more epic as a result of the deeds of their wielders. So what should really be happening with an epic hero is that even if they don't find legendary gear, whatever they use routinely should become suitably epic for them anyways.

 

[Minigiant]

Why not?

It's certainly in keeping with genre convention. Conan (outside of a couple of stories) doesn't use famous weapons. Famously he loses his weapons more often than not. Or, in a more modern incarnation, John Wick doesn't have special guns. He just has a lot of them. Same with Reacher. Or any number of other action heroes. I've never seen Black Widow name her guns. Hawkeye has a bow and some special arrows, but, the bow he has is just a nice bow. He's still pretty darn effective with a stick and string. That was largely the side plot with Arrow - being on the island and learning how to be deadly with a bow.

John Wick's guns when he goes on mission are special,
Haweye's bow and especially his arrows are special. Same with Green Arrow's.
Same with Reacher.

This is the point everyone is missing.

Martial masters of Tier 3 and above are deadly with common weapons. Their personal weapon tend to be specially crafted, masterwork, high tech, or magic weapons.

If their personal weapon is lost, broken, or otherwise unusable, and they most pick up one off the floor or rack, they are still deadly. Especially against Tier 1 and 2 mooks.

That's the second point missed. Most movies and tv shows and books do not get deep into Tier 3.

When John Wick is shooting up dudes, most of those dudes aren't Tier 3. They aren't top folk in the High Table. 1-2 shots with a random gun and they die.

When John is in a fight with a high ranked guy, those mook guns don't kill anyone. When (Spoilers) and (Spoilers) shot at the end of John Wick 4, those are special pistols.

 

[Minigiant]

Now granted, there are weapons that become awesome simply because an awesome person wielded them; D&D has a plethora of Artifacts showing this is certainly the case. Some fantasy heroes are often using random weapons instead of epic legendaries, and at least one (The Grey Mouser) uses a variety of different swords, but always calls them the same thing!

I actually prefer the Earthdawn approach; as your legend grows, so does the legend of your stuff. Joyeuse or Gram certainly have an epic pedigree, but they are made more epic as a result of the deeds of their wielders. So what should really be happening with an epic hero is that even if they don't find legendary gear, whatever they use routinely should become suitably epic for them anyways.

As cool as it is, I think collecting magic weapons as treasure is a better game.

I love intelligent magic items and destiny items that are attacted to heroes and villains. Where a warrior hits level 12 and suddenly a legendary magic sword appears. And 2 other legendary swords are inching their wielders toward that fighter to test their own wielders, the warrior, and the other magic sword.

One thing Ive noticed is monk players tend to not get the same amount of joy due to the lack of excitement over magic arms and armors.

No/Few magic sword/axe/hammer worlds are boring as hell to me. I want 20+ dudes with named magic blades walking around.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Better equipment is better equipment my friend.

The swordman is still mighty with a random footman sword. He/she/they aren't slaying the Avatar of Bane with it.

That's the thing. The foes go up it tier too.

Just how Robblin the Goblin isn't killing Master Leo with a rusty goblin shank. Master Leo isn't killing Koros Demigod of Tyranny with a farmer's pitchfork he just picked up of the farmer Koros just beheaded.

yes, better equipment is better equipment, but a fancy magic sword shouldn't be what's making it possible for the swordsman to slay the avatar, making it easier to do than with the copper sword certainly(in the same way it's easier to kill a monster with a d8/10 warhammer than a simple d4 club), but not what makes it possible

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think the question is backwards.

Should Roland be able to pick up a dropped sword of a random footman and kill the Avatar of Bane with it? No.

Yes.

Should Roland naturally attract a legendary sword like Durendal and always find one at level 12? Yes.

No. Finding magic items as treasure shouldn’t be hard coded into the game, for one thing.

Should Roland be able to pick up a dropped sword of a random footman, train with it, and the sword absorb some of Roland's power over time to become a basic magic sword that can kill the Avatar of Bane? Yes.

Should Roland be able to take a feat to speed up the self awakening of a common sword? Yes.

Should Roland be able to take a feat to reforge a common sword into a magic sword? Yes.

Feats? No thanks.

may i ask why you think the question is backwards? it is not the sword that makes the swordsman, they are just as competent with excalibur in their hands as they would be with an old forged-by-the-hundreds copper shortsword

sorry but i have the opposite answer to all the answers you gave here, except maybe that last one about there being a feat to let people forge magic weapons out of ordinary ones, but i wouldn't be applying that to Roland specifically.

Exactly.

Better equipment is better equipment my friend.

The swordman is still mighty with a random footman sword. He/she/they aren't slaying the Avatar of Bane with it.

That's the thing. The foes go up it tier too.

Just how Robblin the Goblin isn't killing Master Leo with a rusty goblin shank. Master Leo isn't killing Koros Demigod of Tyranny with a farmer's pitchfork he just picked up of the farmer Koros just beheaded.

Why not?

Why not?

It's certainly in keeping with genre convention. Conan (outside of a couple of stories) doesn't use famous weapons. Famously he loses his weapons more often than not. Or, in a more modern incarnation, John Wick doesn't have special guns. He just has a lot of them. Same with Reacher. Or any number of other action heroes. I've never seen Black Widow name her guns. Hawkeye has a bow and some special arrows, but, the bow he has is just a nice bow. He's still pretty darn effective with a stick and string. That was largely the side plot with Arrow - being on the island and learning how to be deadly with a bow.

So on and so forth. We certainly don't require casters to get special wands or staffs in order to cast spells. Imagine the revolt that would happen if WotC declared that 6th+ level spells require a Very Rare or Legendary level spell focus. It's unthinkable.

But, a fighter being able to kill the demigod of tyranny with a pitchfork? Apparently laughable.

Agreed.

Now granted, there are weapons that become awesome simply because an awesome person wielded them; D&D has a plethora of Artifacts showing this is certainly the case. Some fantasy heroes are often using random weapons instead of epic legendaries, and at least one (The Grey Mouser) uses a variety of different swords, but always calls them the same thing!

I actually prefer the Earthdawn approach; as your legend grows, so does the legend of your stuff. Joyeuse or Gram certainly have an epic pedigree, but they are made more epic as a result of the deeds of their wielders. So what should really be happening with an epic hero is that even if they don't find legendary gear, whatever they use routinely should become suitably epic for them anyways.

This. The pitchfork used to kill Bane is Legendary now, but when Sir Ulrich of Parth took it up after his holy sword broke, it was just a simple pitchfork. Now it’s a Legendary magic weapon that uses the stats for a trident.

 

[HammerMan]

My solution make Battlemaster maneuvers available to all characters by spending HD.

That is an interesting idea

 

[HammerMan]

"All Day Long" is not a thing that comes up often. It's a red herring. In any case, we don't need to gaslight each other about our experiences. If you have different experiences, just state so.

They gave wizards at will damage spells. They can now go all day with them.

After level 5 or 6 they can use slots in mst encounters. It isn’t all day but for most adventure days it might as well be.

 

[Minigiant]

No. Finding magic items as treasure shouldn’t be hard coded into the game, for one thing.

Why not?

D&D already has a rewards problem.
Gold is core useless.
Residuum doesn't exist.

Removing magic items from treasure actively make the game worse. It might be cooler but D&D is mostly a rewards game and magic items are the only reward that works.

D&D can be played as a narratives game but the majority of DMs aren't experienced, skilled, or able to do that.

 

[TheSword]

They gave wizards at will damage spells. They can now go all day with them.

After level 5 or 6 they can use slots in mst encounters. It isn’t all day but for most adventure days it might as well be.

Ok but that second level scorching ray or magic missile isn’t really pulling its weight at level 10.