D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[TheSword]

But, that's the point. Against individual creatures, why would I bother dealing area damage? I have a plethora of encounter ending spells (or at least locking down spells)- Banishment, Hold, various charms, Fear, etc - that why would I waste time with area spells? It's not like I have to memorize spells beforehand. I just have my list of whatever and cast as needed.

And, fighters absolutely do not have the ability to slay creatures once per round. After about CR 3, a fighter absolutely cannot kill a monster in a single round. They just don't deal enough damage.

Since 5e those spells don’t lock down foes. They delay them at best. Assuming the wizard never loses concentration, the enemy doesn’t save (or have legendary saves) or immunity. Assuming the wizard hadn’t already wasted their 4th level spell on making three creatures blind for a round or two.

Plus that lockdown spell is probably the only lasting spell of power the wizard can cast. Sure banishment is good, but once cast it’s taking your concentration slot.

10 foes for a fireball. What the fudge?! When does that ever happen, in the same 20 ft radius sphere? What have they just come off a production line? the fact that wizard damage spells don’t stack means was a major nerf to wizards and now at higher levels 28 or 14 damage is pretty inconsequential. Through in resistance to the most common energy type and you’re doing 14 or 7. The fact that at higher levels combat encounters tend to spread across a larger scale means it’s even harder to get several creatures in that space.

It’s like you’re stuck on 3e wizards. 5e wizards are good but they opportunity you outclass fighters in damage is circumstantial at best.

 

[Hussar]

It’s like you’re stuck on 3e wizards.

Again, do the math. Track the total damage for the next twenty rounds of combat you run. I will nearly guarantee that the casters come out ahead. And ahead by a fair chunk.

Remember, if you use banishment on anything that's not from this plane, poof, it's gone forever. Unless it can plane shift back - and even then, Plane Shift doesn't let you come back to exactly where you want.

Like I said, fighters, as in non-caster fighters - might as well not even be in the game. They contribute virtually nothing to play after about 8th level. There's just so many other options that are so much better than fighters.

But, again, I know I lost this argument. No matter how much evidence you stack up, empirical play testing, white board theorycrafting, doesn't matter. The people have spoken and they've said, in one great thunderous voice, that fighters shall forevermore be the "also appearing" class.

It's all rather sad.

 

[Minigiant]

Yeah the wild thing to me is…why can’t a master of arms cut a demon with an extremely well crafted mundane sword?

Like…does Durendal actually need to be magic, or can Roland be why it seems so powerful?

I think the question is backwards.

Should Roland be able to pick up a dropped sword of a random footman and kill the Avatar of Bane with it? No.

Should Roland naturally attract a legendary sword like Durendal and always find one at level 12? Yes.

Should Roland be able to pick up a dropped sword of a random footman, train with it, and the sword absorb some of Roland's power over time to become a basic magic sword that can kill the Avatar of Bane? Yes.

Should Roland be able to take a feat to speed up the self awakening of a common sword? Yes.

Should Roland be able to take a feat to reforge a common sword into a magic sword? Yes.

 

[TheSword]

Again, do the math. Track the total damage for the next twenty rounds of combat you run. I will nearly guarantee that the casters come out ahead. And ahead by a fair chunk.

Remember, if you use banishment on anything that's not from this plane, poof, it's gone forever. Unless it can plane shift back - and even then, Plane Shift doesn't let you come back to exactly where you want.

Like I said, fighters, as in non-caster fighters - might as well not even be in the game. They contribute virtually nothing to play after about 8th level. There's just so many other options that are so much better than fighters.

But, again, I know I lost this argument. No matter how much evidence you stack up, empirical play testing, white board theorycrafting, doesn't matter. The people have spoken and they've said, in one great thunderous voice, that fighters shall forevermore be the "also appearing" class.

It's all rather sad.

People like playing tough, fast, or tough and fast folks who are very good at fighting with weapons. Clearly many players don’t feel like they need a killing blow special ability to feel effective and fun. Sorry. It’s just not a priority and I think you’re over complicating it.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I think the question is backwards.

may i ask why you think the question is backwards? it is not the sword that makes the swordsman, they are just as competent with excalibur in their hands as they would be with an old forged-by-the-hundreds copper shortsword

Should Roland be able to pick up a dropped sword of a random footman and kill the Avatar of Bane with it? No.

Should Roland naturally attract a legendary sword like Durendal and always find one at level 12? Yes.

Should Roland be able to pick up a dropped sword of a random footman, train with it, and the sword absorb some of Roland's power over time to become a basic magic sword that can kill the Avatar of Bane? Yes.

Should Roland be able to take a feat to speed up the self awakening of a common sword? Yes.

Should Roland be able to take a feat to reforge a common sword into a magic sword? Yes.

sorry but i have the opposite answer to all the answers you gave here, except maybe that last one about there being a feat to let people forge magic weapons out of ordinary ones, but i wouldn't be applying that to Roland specifically.

 

[Minigiant]

The All day long aspect of D&D is one of the things is one of those age things.

People aren't running 8-16 encounter dungeons anymore in one or two sessions.

So at high Tier 2 and low Tier 3, caster no longer has to regulate their spell use.

At level 11, a full caster has 4/3/3/3/2/1 slots and feature equal to ~2 level ~3 spells.

Meaning with 2 full casters only using the top half of slots for damage you have to burn through 2 6ths, 4 5ths, and 6 4ths level spells with Channel Divinity and Arcane Recovery before you are "drained of level appropriate magic". That's not counting the 6 3ths you have.

It'll take 6-7 full on fights to drain all of that and the party will want to long rest.

WOTC realized that casters have too many slots at mid levels and now are giving fighters more dailies and having barbarian rage longer so that they can nova on short encounter days. Because the days of 10 hour D&D dungeon grind sessions that could drain dozens of spells are more or less over for most fans.

 

[Minigiant]

may i ask why you think the question is backwards? it is not the sword that makes the swordsman, they are just as competent with excalibur in their hands as they would be with an old forged-by-the-hundreds copper shortsword

Better equipment is better equipment my friend.

The swordman is still mighty with a random footman sword. He/she/they aren't slaying the Avatar of Bane with it.

That's the thing. The foes go up it tier too.

Just how Robblin the Goblin isn't killing Master Leo with a rusty goblin shank. Master Leo isn't killing Koros Demigod of Tyranny with a farmer's pitchfork he just picked up of the farmer Koros just beheaded.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

But why? Why cannot non-magical character have daily powers? We already accept them having encounter level powers - Second Wind, Action Surge, etc.

People do already seem to also accept the daily powers of barbarian rage / samurai fighting spirit / rune knight enlargening / fighter Indomitable etc etc

 

[Hussar]

Better equipment is better equipment my friend.

The swordman is still mighty with a random footman sword. He/she/they aren't slaying the Avatar of Bane with it.

That's the thing. The foes go up it tier too.

Just how Robblin the Goblin isn't killing Master Leo with a rusty goblin shank. Master Leo isn't killing Koros Demigod of Tyranny with a farmer's pitchfork he just picked up of the farmer Koros just beheaded.

Why not?

It's certainly in keeping with genre convention. Conan (outside of a couple of stories) doesn't use famous weapons. Famously he loses his weapons more often than not. Or, in a more modern incarnation, John Wick doesn't have special guns. He just has a lot of them. Same with Reacher. Or any number of other action heroes. I've never seen Black Widow name her guns. Hawkeye has a bow and some special arrows, but, the bow he has is just a nice bow. He's still pretty darn effective with a stick and string. That was largely the side plot with Arrow - being on the island and learning how to be deadly with a bow.

So on and so forth. We certainly don't require casters to get special wands or staffs in order to cast spells. Imagine the revolt that would happen if WotC declared that 6th+ level spells require a Very Rare or Legendary level spell focus. It's unthinkable.

But, a fighter being able to kill the demigod of tyranny with a pitchfork? Apparently laughable.

 

[Krachek]

No matter how cool your martial is, when the sacred key is protected by a wall of force.....you need a wizard.

Need here should be read in a very soft way. We we can also read You may use a Wizard, or a magic item, or hire a Wizard or other expert. Surely Need don’t mean you must have a Wizard as a party member.

Having the party rely on other mean than class feature to solve a problem is very sane for an adventure. It force PCs to interact with the setting.
Wishing to have all classes 100% self sufficient will lead the party surfing on challenge with minimal interaction and minimal satisfaction.