D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

Also aren't Druids good at grappling?

yes

to be honest almost every caster (sorcerer being odd girl out) gets at least 1 if not multi builds to make melee a good option for them.

 

[James Gasik]

"Jut improvise" is not an answer to an issue with the system.

Feels like an Oberoni Fallacy to me.

‘There is no problem because you can always Rule 0 the problem.’

 

[Emberashh]

How is this difficult to get?

A misplaced assumption is mistaking disagreement for misunderstanding.

Like, do I have to explain why a missile carrying napalm is more dangerous than a match, even though both can start a forest fire?

A missile carrying napalm is more dangerous than Meteor Storm is. I would think the point already iterated, that high level magic isn't actually as special as asserted, would be clear by making such comparisons.

The DMG states that an anti-material rifle, these do 6d8 damage and have two shots. So 12d8 damage or 54 average. This is meant to emulate sci-fi weapons like the BFG and other massive damage energy guns. The Meteor Swarm does 40d6 or 140 damage.

A gun only being about 1/3 as damaging as the supposed epitome of destructive magic doesn't make the point you think it does.

a world where wooden boats and brick houses are the pinnacle of construction, having a hyper accurate ICBM with controllable collateral damage ISN'T warping?

Was reality warping when Hiroshima and Nagasaki got bombed? No.

So why would the "functional equivalent" in a world with magic be warping reality?

It wouldn't, if you keep to the logic. But it would, if you're already starting from the assumption that magic is inherently reality warping no matter what, regardless of the properties of the universe its happening in.

I did allude to this earlier. My conclusion stems from me not assuming anything about what magic is or isn't and is not trying to force my arguments to fit an assumption.

what does a martial bring to the table that can compete with all this magic?

However, Clone doesn't care. You can be disintegrated into ashes and you will come back to life. This is far beyond what we are currently capable of.

Considering cloning is real, and arguably mind transferrence (and presumably copying) could be possible as well with further developments in those fields, not so much far beyond as you'd think.

peanuts?

Yes, in a world of dungeons and dragons and magic and gods and wizardry, immortality is peanuts when you can buy resurrection materials at any corner drug store. (Ie, you assumed what I was directing that to and got it very wrong)

In a world of phones, hot chips, and lies, immortality is one of the pinnacle achievements of humanity that we're on the cusp of attaining for ourselves after merely a century and a half of concentrated developments in the fields of medicine, science, and technology.

Its all relative and it goes both ways. Whats an amazing achievement for us isn't always going to be for another universe and vice versa.

 

[James Gasik]

Yeah I don't pretend to know the politics. It's strange though. I could be wrong but I really doubt that WotC would lose customers from a optional, non-core mythic martial class and there is potential to add more people that don't play D&D because of this. Not sure why this segment has so much pull. I don't think it is the majority but I could be wrong. I would be super surprised if causual fans objected and, in fact, would like the mythic martial if it was an option (they just aren't going to advocate for it as they don't think about it that much).

At this point, it's not about losing customers. It's getting their existing customers to buy all the books. Which is why we don't see DMG2's or Epic Campaign Guides anymore. If it's so niche that less than 50% of the customer base (or whatever metric they use in WotC-land) will buy it, is it worth printing?

 

[Chaosmancer]

You know the biggest appeal of TTRPGs for me is that, unlike video games, Im not limited to what the game says I can do, even if the TTRPG lacks specific mechanics for whatever it is.

It is bizarre to me that so many are apparently helpless if their character sheet doesn't have a button to press.

Because any time I try to do something not in the rules as something my character can do, I get told to stop being a problem player. How about that for a reason? How many times must I be told that I can't do this or that, because it would be broken, or it isn't the rules until I finally go... okay, let's just change the rules then!

Or, also, how about because it is incredibly difficult to conceive of doing things that you can't do in the moment? I just had a moment in a game, I'm playing a barbarian, we've got a wizard and a gloomstalker. My character has been pounding away at the enemy, and the wizard suddenly starts rushing into melee with it and taking opportunity attacks. They did so because they were taking out the torches, which would create a 5ft space of darkness for the Gloomstalker to turn invisible.

I'm a bit frustrated I never even considered that... but frankly why would I? I never even paid attention to the lighting conditions, because nothing I do, can do, or can even consider doing is effected by lighting. In fact, I have no abilities beyond hammering the enemy and being tough, so I've just focused on standing between my party and the enemy, because they deal more damage than me and they will die if this thing hits them. So, I didn't consider the factors that couldn't possibly effect my play, because to me they were non-factors. I don't even have the tools to quickly snuff a torch other than grinding it into the ground and hoping that puts it out.

There are psychological elements here that can't just be hand-waved away.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

If it's so niche that less than 50% of the customer base (or whatever metric they use in WotC-land) will buy it, is it worth printing?

I wonder if it is the same 70% is meh and 80% is good but shoot for 89+% of the playtest feedback?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

LOL. 5E fighters don't even get abilities they had in 4E. Where's my Come and Get it? Gated behind DM whim, that's where.

Fighters have dick for narrative abilities compared to spellcasters. Everything is at the discretion of the DM, compared to spells, which are "DM This Happens" abilities. Where's my "I declare there's a secret door here" ability analogous to Passwall? Where's my ability to redirect a spell with my mundane shield, a basic fantasy staple?

Casters get all the stuff not contained in the text as well. AND they get to dictate to the world. Even with the most permissive DM "yes, and..."ing every martial request, casters still get to do more because they have the same skills plus actual class abilities that matter. The fact that a high level fighter needs to roll to jump 15-20 feet is a joke.

Yeah other people can make all the same points without vulgarity and acerbic ranting, so I won’t be engaging with this much.

Instead I’ll just say, read my previous posts for my replies to most of these points.

 

[James Gasik]

i had hoped this thread might've managed to go on a little longer on it's original premise before devolving into the usual martial vs caster nonsense

Gotta make + threads, or you'll always have people saying "what problem are you trying to solve? There is no problem here".

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Also aren't Druids good at grappling?

If they make themselves incapable of casting, sure. Even then, not as good as a fighter or Barbarian, usually.

 

[CreamCloud0]

i'm basically copying this from a while back in the 'how would you revise skills' thread but i think that every skill should have a shortlist of spells that a good enough ability check in the associated skill would let you replicate their effects, it'd almost be like rituals but more expansive, having the ability to 'cast' certain spells nonmagically with your skill check(DC scales with spell level), jump, catapult or haste through athletics, cure wounds, lesser restoration or revivify with medicine, find familiar, animal messenger, summon beast using animal handling and so on.

i don't want the answer to be 'give the martials spells+slots' but if every fiat ability is going to be a spell then martials need to be able to tap into that, combine this with more available expertise for martials.

martials can attempt to perform compelled duel with their intimidation as many times as they like, but spellcasters burn the slot and don't need to make the initial skill check to even use it.