D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[TheSword]

It is a reoccurring issue. Once upon a time it would be one or two people but more and more it is filling threads

Probably since the disparity has reduced considerably. Less people see it as an issue. Particularly when damage so often seems to be self-inflicted. E.g. Adventures requiring a specific spell to succeed or players/DMs ignoring the limitations of spells or ascribing abilities to spells they don’t have.

For instance teleport is lauded as being a game changing spell but it’s amazing how so many people forget that there is anywhere between a 5-33% chance of suffering a mishap when teleporting and a 10-20% chance of randomly going off target by anything up to the full distance travelled that could dump you 100 miles out at sea. Yet people talk as if teleporting is like taking flight 574 from JFK.

 

[HammerMan]

edit: never mind. I am starting to see why some people left.

 

[Emberashh]

It's a game targeted at middle school children. They deserve to have a good experience with it without needing to drag adults or the horrors of the internet into it.

Id wager most do, even despite being at the age where such things would cross the mind of a child.

Shouldn't be an issue, right?

Which is where the perspective of game design comes in that can readily predict how that would turn out, and it ain't good. More bad design does not equal good design, and more genre violation does not equal genre observance.

Particularly when damage so often seems to be self-inflicted

And when its assumed to be happening to large swaths of the community nobody has any real way to account for. I, for instance, have never actually run into, online or IRL, groups of preteens or younger running into huge problems trying to play 5e. I certainly cant say for certain that I always knew who I was talking to in online spaces, but even then.

When I talk to anybody in general in real life about DND outside of my playgroup, these issues never come up. And they only come up with my group because we're all GMs that have spent too much freetime trying to be better and better, so we all eventually came to see these issues exist.

But the average person by my estimate, doesn't. The average person finds 5e to just be fun. These problems just aren't that severe.

Doesn't mean there isn't an issue or that people that encounter them don't exist, but at some point it has to be realized what the online community thinks isn't finding parallels in the greater audience of 5e.

Heck, Ive run into more people that don't even know supplements like Xanathars or Tashas for the game exist than I have people who recognize some disparity between mages and martials.

Edit: And Ive yet to find anyone in real life outside my group that knows what OneDND or an OGL even are, for that matter.

 

[James Gasik]

So the spell sent the ship 60 ft up, and then what? Did the Druid pick the exact point of equilibrium to make the ship balance on the point? Or did it not just land back in the water the next round? Surely the ship had forward momentum or was it stationary/becalmed/anchored.

Incidentally, I bloody loved running Skull and Shackles!

I used another use of Wild Shape to go from Water Elemental to Air (I was a Tempest Tamer) and since the spell is a 60' emanation, I kept flying up and knocking the ship upwards like a damn pinball (repositioning to keep it from falling) for a few rounds then I let it fall back into the water. The DM was about to roll falling damage, thought about it for a few moments, then said it broke apart and sunk (leading to the next session where, armed with water breathing, we attempted to salvage some treasure from the ships hold).

 

[TheSword]

How can people think there are no examples of high level fighters in literature when this fine specimen exists!

 

[Hussar]

I think it's more fair to characterize the entire thread as a discussion around the question of "presuming we agree that there is a disparity in favor of spellcasters, do we lower them to the level of martials, or raise martials up to their level?"

Different people have different answers to that question, and that's okay.

It would be fantastic if we could have that "presuming we agree" part. Only problem is, we keep getting derailed every few pages by people insisting that the problem doesn't exist, or that the problem is being caused by ANY other problem than a problem with how high level warriors are presented.

I'd absolutely love to have a conversation about "presuming we agee that there is a disparity... level?" That's a fantastic conversation and one that's absolutely useful.

 

[James Gasik]

It's worth noting that the Skull & Shackles Player's Guide (i.e. the free PDF that Paizo released when they started publishing that adventure path) explicitly addresses things like this, saying (page 17):

So while you weren't standing on the ship, meaning that it wasn't a fixed object for you, the pilot should still have gotten a save.

We had the player's guide, and yes, they would have gotten a save if our archer Fighter hadn't taken them out already, firing from our crow's nest as the enemy ship was maneuvering to board us. Our DM was going by the ruling that Clustered Shots adds up all the damage of your shots to determine if you have to make a save vs. massive damage and they rolled a 1.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Which is where the perspective of game design comes in that can readily predict how that would turn out, and it ain't good. More bad design does not equal good design, and more genre violation does not equal genre observance.

What does this mean? Is this a push for caster nerfing? If so yes, I agree that the current high level Wizard is a pretty genre violating archtype (see my earlier post). That is a good way of outlining the problem. So yes, it would probably be better to nerf the spellcasters.

If that boat has sailed however, add the mythic martial as an option.

But the average person by my estimate, doesn't. The average person finds 5e to just be fun. These problems just aren't that severe.

Doesn't mean there isn't an issue or that people that encounter them don't exist, but at some point it has to be realized what the online community thinks isn't finding parallels in the greater audience of 5e.

Sure, but that really isn't an argument for status quo vs. even better design/more options?

I would strongly guess that those people you are talking about also don't have strong opinions on "keeping martials mundane", not giving martials powerful limited use abilities, etc.

Those are the very same people that if a mythic martial existed as an option would have no problems playing it, especially if it had cool stuff to do at higher levels. In fact, maybe they would exclusively play it over the champion and battlemaster... These are the people with no baggage on what D&D "should be", right?

 

[Minigiant]

Probably since the disparity has reduced considerably. Less people see it as an issue. Particularly when damage so often seems to be self-inflicted. E.g. Adventures requiring a specific spell to succeed or players/DMs ignoring the limitations of spells or ascribing abilities to spells they don’t have.

For instance teleport is lauded as being a game changing spell but it’s amazing how so many people forget that there is anywhere between a 5-33% chance of suffering a mishap when teleporting and a 10-20% chance of randomly going off target by anything up to the full distance travelled that could dump you 100 miles out at sea. Yet people talk as if teleporting is like taking flight 574 from JFK.

It ssems like the disparity is due to 5e being designed with experienced DMs as the priority.
Because 5e was an apology edition for 4e.

So the designers put no roadblocks or guidance in 5e books in order to not put obstacles in the way of the play of old DMs.

But what about new DMs?
What if 5e become popular with new people.

5e is a game with no instructions, tutorial, and tool tips in the level editor.

 

[TheSword]

I used another use of Wild Shape to go from Water Elemental to Air (I was a Tempest Tamer) and since the spell is a 60' emanation, I kept flying up and knocking the ship upwards like a damn pinball (repositioning to keep it from falling) for a few rounds then I let it fall back into the water. The DM was about to roll falling damage, thought about it for a few moments, then said it broke apart and sunk (leading to the next session where, armed with water breathing, we attempted to salvage some treasure from the ships hold).

Ha ha. A bit like keepy-up with a balloon. I definitely had a love hate relationship with Pathfinder and 3e in general.

You had a kind DM either way. I would have just had the 10’ square repelled section of the hull break away unable to bear the weight of a 500 tonne ship. Punching a hole and probably sinking anyway but much slower. Would still sink but without the gravity defying physics.