D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[CreamCloud0]

I think teleportation is useful mechanically, even if we don't want the BAMF! flavor. For example, I could see something like this scene


The enemy goes to draw his sword (Main character is the orange haired kid) and then... the attack is over and he's been cut. That scene happens a lot, where the superior swordsman has already finished attacking before their opponent realizes it. Teleportation is a great mechanic for that.

i'd be more than happy with a 'flash step' teleport, appearing at point B from point A without having walked the intervening distance but it'd still have to be a location that you could've been able to walk to without obstructions, even if it was restricted to straight line travel.

 

[Gammadoodler]

So on the concept of the "value" of heavy armor- I don't think it's as big a factor as some might think. Consider first, that any class that doesn't have access to heavy armor has at least some reason to invest in Dexterity.

You could built a pure melee Ranger, of course, but they do have a few skills and features that suggest you might want to invest in Dexterity. Indeed, if you are a pure archer, switch hitter, or stealth enthusiast, you can do without Strength entirely, due to the current game's design.

Some classes are built to reward you more and more for an investment in Dexterity; on a long enough timeline, the Barbarian gets more out of raising Dexterity than they would out of investing in armor.

Even a caster class can find value in having a decent initiative bonus.

But even if you invest in the Strength required to wear heavy armor, you've shouldered the financial burden, and are perfectly fine with the penalty to Stealth, the end result is, by endgame, you have an AC 1 higher than most characters. A Mage Armor using caster can gain the same benefit for the trivial use of a 1st-level spell slot. A Monk or Barbarian can even exceed the benefit granted by heavy armor.

This puts heavy armor in a strange place where it's most valuable at low levels, where you can't afford the best heavy armors, pulls ahead at medium levels, but at high levels has a small benefit (with a hindrance attached) or can even be left behind.

Now granted, there is the issue of "what if we're using point buy? Points saved on Dexterity can be spent elsewhere" or "what about ASI's? ASI's not spent on off stats can be used to gain feats!".

But it's worth noting that, regardless of what most tables do, point buy and Feats are actually options- options that the game's design supposedly doesn't even take into account (according to WotC themselves). And further, we see that when options like Multiclassing and Feats are on the table, it's not especially hard to acquire heavy armor if you do want it.

Even worse, racial options exist like the Tortle, who gain a natural AC of 17, almost as good as the best armor in the game, which, with the downfall of racial ability scores, means high AC is within anyone's reach, if they're ok with being a turtle man!

My takeaway here is twofold; if you are "budgeting" heavy armor for a new class, it's not actually worth very much, when compared to, say 1e/2e, as it currently exists.

Which, to me, means that if heavy armor is seriously meant to be a major draw for the classes intended to use it, it needs to be better than it currently is.

I think the contra argument to this is how many magic armors are heavy armor.

This is a difficult thing to account for from a strict class balance perspective of course.

 

[James Gasik]

I think the contra argument to this is how many magic armors are heavy armor.

This is a difficult thing to account for from a strict class balance perspective of course.

Especially with even magic items being optional content, and therefore, kind of hard to bring into any kind of balance debate.

 

[Minigiant]

i'd be more than happy with a 'flash step' teleport, appearing at point B from point A without having walked the intervening distance but it'd still have to be a location that you could've been able to walk to without obstructions, even if it was restricted to straight line travel.

It's really just "As a reaction, move your speed. This movement does not provoke opportunity attacks.".

Martials are more or less hampered by the low amounts of combat rules in the base game and the low amount of official variants.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I think teleportation is useful mechanically, even if we don't want the BAMF! flavor. For example, I could see something like this scene


The enemy goes to draw his sword (Main character is the orange haired kid) and then... the attack is over and he's been cut. That scene happens a lot, where the superior swordsman has already finished attacking before their opponent realizes it. Teleportation is a great mechanic for that.

I'm ok with that. But there are other options and it definitely turns some people off if the label for the mechanic is not the in game reality.

You could just as easily have a mechanic like
Standard action: Lighting Blur Attack
Fluff: You move so fast your attack is over before your enemies even know they have been hit. You slip any bond and navigate through obstacles as if you were in a grass field.
Mechanics: You make one attack against everything within 60ft of you, ending next to the last enemy you attack. This is not considered movement (not effected by AoO, terrain, etc.) and does not use your move action.

Yeah, maybe unnecessary to add a new mechanic but also can avoid issues. Also spells do this all the time -- martial abilities can be effect/outcomes based too!

 

[Incenjucar]

It's really just "As a reaction, move your speed. This movement does not provoke opportunity attacks.".

Martials are more or less hampered by the low amounts of combat rules in the base game and the low amount of official variants.

Also "moving through enemy spaces does not cost extra movement"

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

It's really just "As a reaction, move your speed. This movement does not provoke opportunity attacks.".

Martials are more or less hampered by the low amounts of combat rules in the base game and the low amount of official variants.

True -- no reason to limit all abilities to their speed and movement actions though. That is one of the arbitrary limits to current martials. They always interact with the standard action economy and standard move, AC, attack etc. No reason certain abilities can just say forget that -- you get to do this.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

The basic fighter without subclass is what you said; normal human stuff scaled up. Subs would be the design space to get gonzo.

I'm not sure this will work out well. The flexibility and power of spellcasters comes from their 1-9 spells which are part of their base. Sub-classes add some flavor and tweak things but that's not where the gonzo comes from. This is perhaps why battle masters didn't get level based maneuvers. Not sure.

I think you need to bake in the gonzo into the main class.

 

[AmandaBarbarian]

So I found my 12th level warrior and here is what she had
Sword and shield instead of using the die for a check you can push a creature that die roll ft then follow it with an attack, if you would push them into a wall or other creature your attack gains advantage.
Punishing stance. as a bonus action enter this stance and and as long as you hold it you can add the die to damage on all melee attacks you make that deal damage. If you take damage you must make a concentration save as per a spell.
Disarming Strike. When you hit with a weapon or unarmed attack lower your die code by 1 and target must make a str save DC 9+ dex mod or drop item of your choice, if they miss save by 10 or more you can throw the item 1dx ft based on the die before you lowered it
Gods hammer. lower your die code 2 steps then make a single melee attack if you hit you ignore resistance and immunity and deal extra damage equal to 1d6 per your prof.
Burning Blade. As a bonus action use your die, you can't access it until this effect ends, but until it does (1 min concentration) you can deal that die as fire damage on all melee attacks with this weapon.
Dance of Knives. As part of a move roll the die and lower it 1 code, add the an extra 5ft per number rolled and add half the number rolled to your AC until the start of your next turn. If you make an attack with a light blade you can increase the die code of the weapon damage by 1
Devistating Strike. (two handed only) When you hit with an attack lower your die code then roll 2 of the new die and add it to damage, ignore 1's for this but if either comes up max increase your die.
Sheild Repost. When an adjacent ally is hit or missed with a melee attack and you have a shield force the target to make a con save DC 9+ dex mod or take damage equal to your max on your die+ your con mod. lower the die code only if they fail the save.
Comeback strike. When you miss with a melee attack lower your die code and roll it plus a hd and heal that many pts
Obfuscate. must have a die code of d8 or higher, when you roll stealth and add the die to the roll you can choose to become invisible to anyone who misses the check to see you.
Intimidating Grin. As no action you can make an intimidate check against a creature that can see you within 30ft, The DC is set by the CR + wisdom modifier. If you roll better then that they gain the frightened condition until they save against it. They can make a save at the end of each turn DC 9+ cha modifier.
Try the stick. You can use Intimidate in place of persuasion
Blood Spike Sweep. As an action make a melee attack against all targets you choose within melee range, if you hit deal damage as normal, if you miss deal damage equal to your die, aft this is done lower the die code 2 steps before modifying for any and all 1's or maxs.

and I have one written down I think I was going to take next: Parry, as a reaction when you or an adjacent ally is hit by an attack that does damage lower the damage by a roll of your die + your dex mod. if it reduces it to 0 you don't have to reduce your die code other wise you do.

and I think it is 9+ instead of 8, because I had both a +1 elven sword and 2 +1 knives

 

[AmandaBarbarian]

Do you remember the words Iron Heart Surge and/or thinker of blades? If so I may know what he did.

I don't remember thinker of blades, but Iron heart was one of the schools of combat so that might be it.