Mechanics of Revived Settings; your thoughts?

[Remathilis]

I'm talking about 2e. Most of the classes in the PHB fit fine in darksun using the 2e as a guide.

They all fit fine if we use the 3e and 4e versions as well. A version of DS that pulls from all editions for a version of D&D that pulls from all editions; how novel!

Paizo and WotC had no problems justifying all 11 3e classes in Dark Sun; sure, some of them were rare (paladin, monk, caster-bard) but they were all available. 4e might have restricted divine classes (mostly due to how power-sources worked in 4e) but they also had no problems with psionic monks or arcane bards. By my count, that's two editions that supported at least two-out-of-three of those classes.

Which is my point; it'd be highly preferable to give advice on how to use all 12 PHB classes in Dark Sun (even if some are "these are rare, check with DM") than to establish hard bans on these things. The same is true of the newer races like tieflings, goliaths, or dragonborn (the latter becoming half-giants and drays) rather than simply saying "No, never evereverevereverevereverever!"

 

[cbwjm]

They all fit fine if we use the 3e and 4e versions as well. A version of DS that pulls from all editions for a version of D&D that pulls from all editions; how novel!

Paizo and WotC had no problems justifying all 11 3e classes in Dark Sun; sure, some of them were rare (paladin, monk, caster-bard) but they were all available. 4e might have restricted divine classes (mostly due to how power-sources worked in 4e) but they also had no problems with psionic monks or arcane bards. By my count, that's two editions that supported at least two-out-of-three of those classes.

Which is my point; it'd be highly preferable to give advice on how to use all 12 PHB classes in Dark Sun (even if some are "these are rare, check with DM") than to establish hard bans on these things. The same is true of the newer races like tieflings, goliaths, or dragonborn (the latter becoming half-giants and drays) rather than simply saying "No, never evereverevereverevereverever!"

Personally, I don't think that every option needs to be shoehorned into a setting but, sure, include a side bar in the relevant sections that says that even though these races/classes typically don't exist, here are some ways to include them.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Surprised not to see any commentary on Spelljammer or Planescape; what do folks think these settings need?

Despite the fact that these are big parts of my game, I didn't mention them because I think they are both a combination of setting and meta-setting.

Since we get a lot of planar stuff outside of specific setting material, we don't need that repeated. I'm also not mentioning anything that is known to be included in upcoming products (such as githzerai and githyanki). What we do need is this:

Planescape
Races:
-Maybe rogue modron. (It's fringe enough it isn't essential).
Monsters:
-More planar exemplars. Archons, guardinals, eladrin -- the original recipe, not the 4e appropriations of the name. Gehreleths, heirarchy modrons, probably others
-Dabus and other Sigil/Outlands iconics
-Lots of others probably

We do need some way to represent special powers from the factions, but it's difficult to balance. The best way I have thought of (and what I'm using in my game) is to make faction membership a new character Bond. As long as you don't totally disregard your faction philosophy, you get a magical benefit(s) and a magical hindrance. The benefit(s) should slightly outweight the hindrances, but not by much since you don't have to pay any build resource to get this feature.

As an example, for the Society of Sensation, you write a Bond that fits, and get:
-Darkvision 30 ft. (or your darkvision range increased by 30 ft. if you already have it)
-Advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks (including Passive) to avoid being surprised by an ambush
-Disadvantage on saving throws against spells that attempt to overwhelm you through your senses (stuff like hypnotic pattern--there aren't a whole lot of these, but if you count Xanathar's, probably a dozen or so)

For planes, I don't think we need a lot of mechanical effects--and the ones in the DMG need to be seriously downgraded in power. I'd change all the "after a long rest" ones to "each month", and say that they are negated in specific settlements or regions that are intended to be visitor friendly. Or make them weekly instead of monthly, but include planar keys that you can keep on your person that make you immune to the effects. That's all more complicated than I'd like, but we need a way to both have effects, but let merchants and travelers actually go to these places and stay at inns without transforming overnight.

We absolutely don't need any of the stuff where spells get a +/- modifier, or X spells don't work, etc. That's all AD&D design--even 3e simplified it. 5e ignores it entirely. What we could have would be sections that suggest some of the less mechanical but awesome features of the planes. For instance, how if you don't do good deeds you can't get where you want to go in Elysium, or how you have to stay on the roads to get anywhere in Arcadia, or even how (as a slight exception to my previous point) you can't use non-natural flight in the Beastlands. Cool stuff like that that is more fluff of a weird locale than mechanical stuff.

Spelljammer
Races:
-Probably a couple, but not many
Monsters:
-Here we need a lot

We also need spelljamming and arcane space rules. They need to be simplified, non-punitive, and consistent. For example, clerics cast spells normally, but only some faiths have a presence in faith. There needs to be a balance of keeping the flavor without making the rules a hassle. For instance, I'd almost say they should just say that wildspace and the Phlogiston are filled with a breathable "air-like" substance so we don't have to worry about air. That's iffy though. The rules for helms need simplification, and you shouldn't be out of action for the day once you strap into the seat.

Note that in contrast to the other settings I talked about, I didn't mention any classes or subclasses. That is intentional, since neither of these settings need anything of the sort. I don't even think they really need subraces. Maybe a lizardman subrace (we already have the race in Volo's Guide) to better represent the spacefaring version.

 

[cbwjm]

I'd quite like to see some spell effects not working on certain planes. Things like water/ice magic not working on the plane or fire or fire not working on the plane of water. Probably don't need to have it too complex though where every school was adjusted but I like it as the magical physics of each plane.

 

[gyor]

Despite the fact that these are big parts of my game, I didn't mention them because I think they are both a combination of setting and meta-setting.

Since we get a lot of planar stuff outside of specific setting material, we don't need that repeated. I'm also not mentioning anything that is known to be included in upcoming products (such as githzerai and githyanki). What we do need is this:

Planescape
Races:
-Maybe rogue modron. (It's fringe enough it isn't essential).
Monsters:
-More planar exemplars. Archons, guardinals, eladrin -- the original recipe, not the 4e appropriations of the name. Gehreleths, heirarchy modrons, probably others
-Dabus and other Sigil/Outlands iconics
-Lots of others probably

We do need some way to represent special powers from the factions, but it's difficult to balance. The best way I have thought of (and what I'm using in my game) is to make faction membership a new character Bond. As long as you don't totally disregard your faction philosophy, you get a magical benefit(s) and a magical hindrance. The benefit(s) should slightly outweight the hindrances, but not by much since you don't have to pay any build resource to get this feature.

As an example, for the Society of Sensation, you write a Bond that fits, and get:
-Darkvision 30 ft. (or your darkvision range increased by 30 ft. if you already have it)
-Advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks (including Passive) to avoid being surprised by an ambush
-Disadvantage on saving throws against spells that attempt to overwhelm you through your senses (stuff like hypnotic pattern--there aren't a whole lot of these, but if you count Xanathar's, probably a dozen or so)

For planes, I don't think we need a lot of mechanical effects--and the ones in the DMG need to be seriously downgraded in power. I'd change all the "after a long rest" ones to "each month", and say that they are negated in specific settlements or regions that are intended to be visitor friendly. Or make them weekly instead of monthly, but include planar keys that you can keep on your person that make you immune to the effects. That's all more complicated than I'd like, but we need a way to both have effects, but let merchants and travelers actually go to these places and stay at inns without transforming overnight.

We absolutely don't need any of the stuff where spells get a +/- modifier, or X spells don't work, etc. That's all AD&D design--even 3e simplified it. 5e ignores it entirely. What we could have would be sections that suggest some of the less mechanical but awesome features of the planes. For instance, how if you don't do good deeds you can't get where you want to go in Elysium, or how you have to stay on the roads to get anywhere in Arcadia, or even how (as a slight exception to my previous point) you can't use non-natural flight in the Beastlands. Cool stuff like that that is more fluff of a weird locale than mechanical stuff.

Spelljammer
Races:
-Probably a couple, but not many
Monsters:
-Here we need a lot

We also need spelljamming and arcane space rules. They need to be simplified, non-punitive, and consistent. For example, clerics cast spells normally, but only some faiths have a presence in faith. There needs to be a balance of keeping the flavor without making the rules a hassle. For instance, I'd almost say they should just say that wildspace and the Phlogiston are filled with a breathable "air-like" substance so we don't have to worry about air. That's iffy though. The rules for helms need simplification, and you shouldn't be out of action for the day once you strap into the seat.

Note that in contrast to the other settings I talked about, I didn't mention any classes or subclasses. That is intentional, since neither of these settings need anything of the sort. I don't even think they really need subraces. Maybe a lizardman subrace (we already have the race in Volo's Guide) to better represent the spacefaring version.

Use a modified version of faction rules that AL uses for FR for Sigilian factions.

For Spelljammers have the helm take consentration, not all your spell slots. Maybe a 1 first level slot too.

 

[Remathilis]

Personally, I don't think that every option needs to be shoehorned into a setting but, sure, include a side bar in the relevant sections that says that even though these races/classes typically don't exist, here are some ways to include them.

See, I prefer the opposite approach; give write ups on all classes and then a sidebar noting what to remove for a more "traditional" approach the setting. You can still pull the "x is rare, check with your DM" on those newer things.

5e is slow to release splat, so anytime you hard ban an option, you are shrinking the game. A setting like Dark Sun may only ever see one books worth of material, so I think it's best to keep options open and let the DM edit if he really thinks something doesn't fit. (Akin to what a DM running Realms does now.) This is double with classes, as WotC has been very cautious in releasing new ones so every class banned isn't going to get a replacement like a race or subclass would.

I think, given that no setting it's getting lines-worth of development anymore, is that whenever WotC publishes an "official" guide to an official setting, it should attempt to provide a place for all 12 classes (and as many races as possible, using world-specific subraces or refluffing, or provide replacements when they can't) and individual DMs can ban what they want to replicate 2e Dark Sun, 1e Greyhawk, or Becmi Mystara.

 

[Patrick McGill]

Birthright is the Game of Thrones setting of Dnd, with a dedicatd rule set for running militant, religious and mercantile factions in the games Provinces/Realms. This is done at the strategic level of political intrigues as a backdrop rather than at the more tactical leve of PF Kingdom Building rules (although building assets like Trade routes, Forts and Shipyards can happen too). WHile the standard game is pitched at Regents ruling Realms, the rules can be tweaked to be about Merchant Companies seeking to dominate international trade, Bandit Gangs raiding the local villages or feudings Lords seeking to take the Iron Throne (the GM has to maintain the NPC allies and rivals and keep up a regular stream of rumours and NPC intrigues). Its this aspect of political plotting and factional intrigues that marks out the Birthright niche.

On top of that Birthright adds the elements of divine Bloodlines where PCs can be 'Scions' with their godly bloodlines giving them extra abilities (ranging from minor bonus to alertness, through Invunerability to teleportation or the ability to cause damage by their touch) and a means to directly tap in to the power of the land so they can also perform month-long rituals to cast spells that affect whole Provinces.

The setting fluff also has powerful monstrous NPCs who are also Scions and carry the blood of ancient gods (The Gorgon (humanoid , stone bull) is the most famous, but also the multiheaded Hydra and the Ghoul) otherwise Brithright was well realised but kind if generic western fantasy. Its human centric, but with the standard races too and elves who don't like humans and thus stick to themselves.

Birthright got screwed by it's release schedule. It was so incredibly unique compared to the other normal fantasy settings and really should have taken off, especially with the subset of players that like sweeping kingdom sized epics. I've bought the Birthright stuff from the DMs Guild and drool over it all the time. Definitely needs at some point to be brought in to 5e, but the book would be more of a book of rules modules than a simple setting book. It made so many changes to the base game and expectations therein.

 

[Patrick McGill]

So I'm pretty happy with the way things stand with settings in 5e right now because I really enjoy converting on the fly. I have mentioned my Al-Qadim game on this forum before, it went for many sessions (I think to level 9 or 10?) and we had a blast. I wrote up backgrounds, a Station optional rule, and an equipment/item list and I didn't really feel like I needed anything else that I couldn't just whip up in media res (like monsters or magic items). I will say, though, that the PCs were all foreign ajami magically brought to Zakhara, so I didn't need to worry about new class mechanics. In an official release, I would want sha'ir as a school of magic for wizards (warlock might work but frankly I see them more as INT based scholars) and elemental sorcerers (Kobold has a GREAT one in their Deep Magic series though). The other "kits" in Al-Qadim: Arabian Adventures I made into the backgrounds (like mamelukes, barbers, slaves, al-badia nomads, etc) or connected to PHB backgrounds (like urchin to beggar, sailor to corsair, hermit to mystic, entertainer to rawan, etc.) they just worked better that way.

If the WotC Genies granted me a wish, I'd wish for a box-set or large book for a reimagined Birthright complete with setting and rules modules to layer on top of the base game - or a Paizo style adventure path set up for a re-imagined Dragonlance story-line expanding and changing some things for modern audiences and to smooth some of the sillier elements to be less hyperbolic. (By this I mean making the kender and gnomes something more than walking punch lines.) I doubt either of these two things will ever happen, however, though I don't lose sleep over it.

My guess is we're going to keep getting campaign setting information presented in large-form adventures as we have been getting now, and WotC has no plans to do any proper Campaign Setting books because the hybrid book approach seems to be working for them. I expect Planescape to be the next non-FR jaunt (and it will surely be connected, using Faerun as a starting point in that adventure).

 

[gyor]

So I'm pretty happy with the way things stand with settings in 5e right now because I really enjoy converting on the fly. I have mentioned my Al-Qadim game on this forum before, it went for many sessions (I think to level 9 or 10?) and we had a blast. I wrote up backgrounds, a Station optional rule, and an equipment/item list and I didn't really feel like I needed anything else that I couldn't just whip up in media res (like monsters or magic items). I will say, though, that the PCs were all foreign ajami magically brought to Zakhara, so I didn't need to worry about new class mechanics. In an official release, I would want sha'ir as a school of magic for wizards (warlock might work but frankly I see them more as INT based scholars) and elemental sorcerers (Kobold has a GREAT one in their Deep Magic series though). The other "kits" in Al-Qadim: Arabian Adventures I made into the backgrounds (like mamelukes, barbers, slaves, al-badia nomads, etc) or connected to PHB backgrounds (like urchin to beggar, sailor to corsair, hermit to mystic, entertainer to rawan, etc.) they just worked better that way.

If the WotC Genies granted me a wish, I'd wish for a box-set or large book for a reimagined Birthright complete with setting and rules modules to layer on top of the base game - or a Paizo style adventure path set up for a re-imagined Dragonlance story-line expanding and changing some things for modern audiences and to smooth some of the sillier elements to be less hyperbolic. (By this I mean making the kender and gnomes something more than walking punch lines.) I doubt either of these two things will ever happen, however, though I don't lose sleep over it.

My guess is we're going to keep getting campaign setting information presented in large-form adventures as we have been getting now, and WotC has no plans to do any proper Campaign Setting books because the hybrid book approach seems to be working for them. I expect Planescape to be the next non-FR jaunt (and it will surely be connected, using Faerun as a starting point in that adventure).

I could see both Clockwork Mate and Mageweaver being subclasses of Artificer, I mean that is basically what they are, proto Artificers, before that class existed.

 

[cbwjm]

See, I prefer the opposite approach; give write ups on all classes and then a sidebar noting what to remove for a more "traditional" approach the setting. You can still pull the "x is rare, check with your DM" on those newer things.

5e is slow to release splat, so anytime you hard ban an option, you are shrinking the game. A setting like Dark Sun may only ever see one books worth of material, so I think it's best to keep options open and let the DM edit if he really thinks something doesn't fit. (Akin to what a DM running Realms does now.) This is double with classes, as WotC has been very cautious in releasing new ones so every class banned isn't going to get a replacement like a race or subclass would.

I think, given that no setting it's getting lines-worth of development anymore, is that whenever WotC publishes an "official" guide to an official setting, it should attempt to provide a place for all 12 classes (and as many races as possible, using world-specific subraces or refluffing, or provide replacements when they can't) and individual DMs can ban what they want to replicate 2e Dark Sun, 1e Greyhawk, or Becmi Mystara.

I think that's rather restrictive for the designers if they are required to include every class or every race, or even just the common ones, in every setting they put out. They shouldn't have to do away with a great theme for a setting just to fit every option in the PHB into the setting.