D&D General My "Perfect D&D" Would Include...

[Reynard]

. So why would I give them the same climb on a level 13 character?

You probably wouldn't. But if the PCs returned to that location 10 levels later (for whatever reason) the DC of that climb should not have changed just because they are better at climbing.

 

[Matt Thomason]

You probably wouldn't. But if the PCs returned to that location 10 levels later (for whatever reason) the DC of that climb should not have changed just because they are better at climbing.

Yeah, like if they're climbing a cliff to a nice spot to build their secret castle headquarters at L5, then the day the secret stairwell is compromised when they're L15 and have improved their climbing ability and have to repeat that same old climb, I would not be a fan of recalculating it to give them the exact same chance just to ensure it's "still a challenge". The way to do that is to give them new, harder cliffs to climb in their L15 stories, while also showing them the stuff they did 10 levels ago is now simpler.

Of course, I may well add some orcs pouring boiling oil down that old cliff...

 

[Clint_L]

You probably wouldn't. But if the PCs returned to that location 10 levels later (for whatever reason) the DC of that climb should not have changed just because they are better at climbing.

Well, of course not. But I don't need big lists of things in the PHB to tell me that. This just seems like a solution in search of a problem.

 

[tetrasodium]

I don't understand your point. Prince Huperdink can track a falcon on a cloudy day because he has a +19 and the DC for that is 25 (or whatever, it's just an example). I don't understand why listing DC 45 difficulties (for 3.x; for 5E it would be DC 30 difficulties) is a problem. They are still benchmarks. It says "This is what is considered 'impossible' for climbing in 5E." It takes minimal space and provides the GM with valuable information with which they can adjudicate. Win-win.

The point is that a tier1 PC(L1-4?) & a tier2 PC (L5-9?)/tier3 PC(L10-16?)/tier4(L17+) face different challenges. There used to be a mechanic that the GM could use to adjust the values as appropriate (which is pretty much what the dc5-dc43 table shows) but 5e moved away from that kind of thing in favor of bounded accuracy & what @Lanefan eloquently summarized as overusing advantage/disadvantage "to the point of absurdity" resulting in a situation where players feel cheated opts to give bob DCs that enable competence porn rather than everything just having the world turn into an endless chain if Absurdly Ineffective Barricades once the party crosses the bounds of "bounded" accuracy.

 

[Reynard]

I find it interesting that the single most popular element is skills, which (at least in their modern form) are a pretty recent addition to D&D (but not RPGs in general, obvs).

 

[Krachek]

The Poll don’t include bonus action and action economy concept, good, we don’t need them!

 

[Matt Thomason]

The point is that a tier1 PC(L1-4?) & a tier2 PC (L5-9?)/tier3 PC(L10-16?)/tier4(L17+) face different challenges. There used to be a mechanic that the GM could use to adjust the values as appropriate (which is pretty much what the dc5-dc43 table shows) but 5e moved away from that kind of thing in favor of bounded accuracy & what @Lanefan eloquently summarized as overusing advantage/disadvantage "to the point of absurdity" resulting in a situation where players feel cheated opts to give bob DCs that enable competence porn rather than everything just having the world turn into an endless chain if Absurdly Ineffective Barricades once the party crosses the bounds of "bounded" accuracy.

I think this is one of the reasons I prefer BECMI's solution - low-level characters face monsters in dungeons, mid-level characters deal with kingdom-level threats, and high-level characters go waltzing off through gates to other planes.

 

[Pedantic]

Well, of course not. But I don't need big lists of things in the PHB to tell me that. This just seems like a solution in search of a problem.

I absolutely want that list. So that at level 16, when I have taken a series of abilities that let me consistently make the climb checks to cling to a vertical surface and move my full speed, I can make confident, declarative statements about how I solve problems.

The challenge shouldn't be "make a climb check" the challenge should be "get to this idol floating in the middle of the lava lake" and the climbing is a tool a player might choose to use. I want that decision to matter, in a way that "this is a level 15 challenge, you're using climb, okay, you could describe that as clinging to the ceiling" can't handle. I want to pick climbing not because it's narratively interesting but because I think it's the optimal solution, and is a better choice than something else I could have done.

This is important because it is in opposition to a narrative understanding of challenge, and produces gameplay that cannot be achieved in a game that uses a relative method or narrative method to resolve skill checks. Either the game is designed with that kind of player facing challenge in mind, or it isn't.

 

[Scribe]

i'd have voted for fixed(or an established default at the very least) species modifiers if that were on the list.

Without a doubt. 100% in my game.

To the shock and horror of all, my list is.

Alignment
Species Class and Level Limits
Prestige Classes
Class Archetypes
Open Multiclass
Psionics
Paragons
Save or Die/Suck
Level Drain
Rule/Leadership Rules
Immortality
20 Levels or Less
Epic Levels
Broad Species Choice
Grid Combat
Skill Challenge
Travel/Journey
Social Rules
Skills
Feats
3 Saves
Ability Saves
XP x 3
Item Creation Rules
Random Treasure
Something I forgot (Race ASI)

AKA: PF1/3.5+

 

[Steel_Wind]

I put it to you that the Great Dividing Line above is:

Grid based combat vs. Theater of the mind based combat

You can come up with a great long list and none of those things hint at a real separator in terms of how combat flows and how the game is actually played, until you get to that one.

That is the Great Generational Divide. That is the OD&D/1st/2nd/BECMI vs 3//4/5 divide.

That is TSR vs WotC. Old vs New.