MonsterEnvy
Legend
I am completely fine with Drow having an evil culture, and there being other non evil Drow cultures I think it works fine.
Nobody is saying that drow can't be evil (although a culture that's monolithically evil is both nonsensical and been done to death). But how about coming up with a motivation for their evil rather than just saying "drow are evil." Drow in your setting (generic you) are demon-worshipers. OK. Why? What do they get out of it? Why did they start worshiping demons instead of non-evil gods and entities? Why do they continue?So now we're heading back to 2e with tanar'ri and baatezu? Or maybe back to BECMI where they're are no outer-planar beings at all?
This has veered wildly from the topic of new Drow cultures, so I'll concede that drow can now longer be evil and demons are misunderstood and go upon my day.
Why should it be obfuscated?Exactly how I feel about forcing a few 'but it's always been this way' cultures into a setting where they didn't exist.
I don't have issue with removal of some clearly flawed elements. I have issue with how it's done.
This doesn't reinforce any kind of continuity, it simply shrugs and says oh but of course we aren't saying all drow, see here!
It's simply too obvious, too 'we need some way to look less terrible' and it's too transparent.
Repetition doesn’t make this hyperbolic nonsense any less false.So now we're heading back to 2e with tanar'ri and baatezu? Or maybe back to BECMI where they're are no outer-planar beings at all?
This has veered wildly from the topic of new Drow cultures, so I'll concede that drow can now longer be evil and demons are misunderstood and go upon my day.
Do you mean the reveal of these new civilizations?Why should it be obfuscated?
Why do that, though? The world is full of stuff Drizzt and his dad and his best frenemies don’t know about.Do you mean the reveal of these new civilizations?
If so, I'm saying it should have been developed not as 'they have always been here' but some kind of organic growth out of what (was) the current canon situation.
To just POOF these into existence feels extremely weird, to me. I believe I understand why its being done, but especially with a novel series, this is something that could have been developed throughout novels/setting books, instead of just saying 'oh no, there actually are 2 hidden civilizations, that have been here since XXXX'
Because the setting is far larger than one character and it (had) an extensive history. To just inject this into it? To me, it could have been something done far more gracefully, over time, so that it actually looks like a natural development of the canon....then again.Why do that, though? The world is full of stuff Drizzt and his dad and his best frenemies don’t know about.
Even in a world as extensively detailed as Toril, there are still blank spots on the map, and places left to discover. As I said previously on this thread, this is at basically the North Pole and in a jungle that canonically is still fairly unexplored - it's not like they plopped them down 2 miles outside of Waterdeep. And it certainly isn't unreasonable that some drow refused to go underground with the rest...Do you mean the reveal of these new civilizations?
If so, I'm saying it should have been developed not as 'they have always been here' but some kind of organic growth out of what (was) the current canon situation.
To just POOF these into existence feels extremely weird, to me. I believe I understand why its being done, but especially with a novel series, this is something that could have been developed throughout novels/setting books, instead of just saying 'oh no, there actually are 2 hidden civilizations, that have been here since XXXX'
Anything can be justified, or explained, especially in a post-canon setting.Even in a world as extensively detailed as Toril, there are still blank spots on the map, and places left to discover. As I said previously on this thread, this is at basically the North Pole and in a jungle that canonically is still fairly unexplored - it's not like they plopped them down 2 miles outside of Waterdeep. And it certainly isn't unreasonable that some drow refused to go underground with the rest...
So if Exandrian orcs & half-orcs don't have this curse of ruin screwing them over, why does it seem like they have larger (seemingly innate?) impulse to give into violence & anger compared to other races there? Because that is what the text is telling me.Orcs and half-orcs do feel a certain pull toward violence and anger. But the simple truth is that there is no curse of ruin. No supernatural power drives orcs to kill. Rather, they are simply victims of the same selfish, violent impulses that corrupt all mortal beings.
This is my take. Most drow are at most complicit in an evil society they can't escape, with the truly heinous individuals being part of the upper classes that Lolth has arbitrarily picked-out. Since the drow are isolated in the Underdark most other peoples will only interact with the Lolthite leaders and their chosen. Lolth could even have designed things this way to generate hostility against the drow, keeping them from escaping her influence.Isn't it primarily that the nobles among the Ur-Drow(?) are evil and assholes, along with the priesthood of Lolth, while the average citizen is mostly just probably dickish or whatever but not full on baby eating like the leaders often are?
I mean honestly, the culture of the Lolthian drow is actively nasty in a way that would generate hatred in others.
Does that mean the drow we're most familiar with are somehow innately evil? No. But they live in a culture that pushes a particular viewpoint that seems to be designed (by Lolth maybe?) to get tons of groups & nations wanting to kick their naughty word in hard.
And unfortunately, because most of those nations or groups only encounter the priestesses, the slave raiding parties, and the nobility mostly, all the evidence they put together points to the drow as honest-to-god pricks.
Well, for one thing the stuff in the Wildemount book is essentially a retcon (and Tal'Dorei Reborn could have even bigger retcons in store). The Wildemount book paints the curse of ruin as essentially being Gruumshite propaganda that many orcs and non-orcs have bought into due to confirmation bias. Whenever an orc or half-orc is violent the alleged curse is taken to be the cause. Followers of Gruumsh could also use this alleged curse of ruin to foment hostility against orcs, hoping to force even non-Gruumshite orcs to return to Gruumshite communities.So if Exandrian orcs & half-orcs don't have this curse of ruin screwing them over, why does it seem like they have larger (seemingly innate?) impulse to give into violence & anger compared to other races there? Because that is what the text is telling me.
“Terrorists like ISIL are trying to divide us along lines of religion and background,” the president said. “That's how they stoke fear. That’s how they recruit."
This is my take. Most drow are at most complicit in an evil society they can't escape, with the truly heinous individuals being part of the upper classes that Lolth has arbitrarily picked-out. Since the drow are isolated in the Underdark most other peoples will only interact with the Lolthite leaders and their chosen. Lolth could even have designed things this way to generate hostility against the drow, keeping them from escaping her influence.
You don't have to run your game differently than you want to just because strangers on the Internet are complaining. Given the nature of the Internet, it's impossible to know how much of any given sentiment boosted by a vocal minority of Extremely Online individuals is actually representative of people in general.
Your primary commitment should be to your players. If they were to be uncomfortable with something then you should make changes.
I brought up the notion that the faerezz (sp) makes Drow* more susceptible to brainwashing via propaganda and magical influence from Lolth and her demons. It hardens thier hearts and conditions them via societal pressure to be crueller and to give positive reinforcement to those who act out that cruelty. It's a nationwide cult; a Jonestown on an epic scale, and it's successful because the cults God-leader is literally a Demon-Goddess.
The response back was "nope, always-evil black person stand in. Thermian argument. Do better".
So I will not justify it any longer. Drow culture is full mostly good, honest folk who live in perpetual fear of a tiny but powerful ruling elite. They are forced to commit atrocities they do not want to do under pain of death and if they could find enough powerful adventurers to help, they'd overthrow the Lolthites in a heartbeat and establish an enlightened, democratic government.
You can use that same paragraph for orcs, Thayans, and any other nation that bends towards not playing nice with thier neighbors.
Yeah, I keep going back to the Aztecs when I think of civilizations like this. The Aztecs had a beautiful city. However, they also practiced ritual human sacrifice out of a belief that doing so was required by the gods to keep the world from falling into chaos and had made enough enemies out of their neighbors that the Fall of Tenochtitlan had many, many, many more indigenous warriors fighting to bring down the Aztecs than Spanish conquistadors (if I understand correctly, there were around 1000 Spanish and 20,000 natives from various enemies of the Aztecs). You can't ignore what the Spanish did afterwards throughout the region, of course, but the neighbors of the Aztecs were clearly looking for a reason to strike against them and saw an opportunity with Cortes and his indigenous advisor and interpreter Malinche (there was a Mexican-made Amazon original series called Hernan released a few years back focusing on Cortes, Malinche, and Moteczuma I'm very curious about, but it's not available in English).I kind of look at them kind of like the Aztecs. Mist Drow probably genuinely believe in Lolth and co the ones that don't mostly go along with it.
People absolutely need to determine how serious or dark their game is going to be ran.With this in mind, even though it's realistic for evil organizations to act this way, D&D is supposed to be a fun fantasy game.