D&D 5E New Drow cultures coming in Starlight Enclave, the Lorendrow and the Aevendrow

[Vaalingrade]

On the other side you have the dwarves, so good that when their brothers were kidnapped by aberrations from the depths, instead of saving them, they just forget about them, and when said brothers came back, those good dwarves AND their gods found that the lawful good answer was to boot them back into the hands of their oppressor because they lost faith in those gods.

I keep getting the feeling that FR is anti-religious despite wanting to the be opposite.

NO ONE benefits from having any gods around except Magic Lady #8 or whoever is stapled to the Weave this week, especially because of their service to Ao and their own addiction to worship, but at the same time you have to have a patron deity of some kind because FR demands it for whatever nebulous theme it's trying to feed.

The gods are all petty children at best, corporate scumbags at worst, desperately trying to keep their position in the face of Daddy/CEO Ao while visiting their demands and eccentricities upon the populace.

 

[Mirtek]

I liked Lolth better when she was just a spider demon with 66 hit points.

Actually even back then her stat block said she's a lesser goddess with 66 hit points

http://www.mourningtheancient.com/z803-29-thumb.jpg

 

[Remathilis]

Why not? Going from the stats we have, the leaders are all incredibly high-leveled priests (Matron Mothers are CR 20; Priestesses of Lolth are CR 8), many of whom have pet demons (draegloth are CR 7; yochol are CR 10), concubines who are high-leveled wizards (Favored Consort is CR 18), and tons of assassins, warriors, and spies at their beck and call.

What is average drow commoner (CR 0 to maybe CR 1/4) going to do against that? Are drow commoners even allowed to leave their cities freely if they want to flee, or do they have to sneak out and hope they're not caught?

I think that, considering those circumstances, it's ridiculous to assume that since most drow have no actual way to fight against their evil leaders without getting captured, tortured, and killed (or worse), that they are also by necessity evil.

Your missing the obvious part: they don't WANT to leave or fight against thier leadership. They're indoctrinated, brainwashed, part of a nation-sized cult. Most of them have no reason or desire to fight the power. They're complicit. The vast majority of them would have been raised to tap into those feelings of bigotry, racial-superiorty, hatred and greed. It's a wild stew of Nazi Germany, Jim Crow and Jonestown. And your Drow who doesn't tow the line doesn't survive long enough to factor into that racial alignment census.

If you want to assume drow culture is capable of 21st century progressive thought, that's fine. It's your game. But I think it's a deep misreading of how drow culture and reduces them to "underdark humans with pointy ears".

 

[Micah Sweet]

Your missing the obvious part: they don't WANT to leave or fight against thier leadership. They're indoctrinated, brainwashed, part of a nation-sized cult. Most of them have no reason or desire to fight the power. They're complicit. The vast majority of them would have been raised to tap into those feelings of bigotry, racial-superiorty, hatred and greed. It's a wild stew of Nazi Germany, Jim Crow and Jonestown. And your Drow who doesn't tow the line doesn't survive long enough to factor into that racial alignment census.

If you want to assume drow culture is capable of 21st century progressive thought, that's fine. It's your game. But I think it's a deep misreading of how drow culture and reduces them to "underdark humans with pointy ears".

Makes you wonder why we're applying 21st century progressive thought to a 20th century game based on mythological archetypes dating back centuries or millennia before that.

 

[PsyzhranV2]

Makes you wonder why we're applying 21st century progressive thought to a 20th century game based on mythological archetypes dating back centuries or millennia before that.

Because D&D 5e is a game being played by 21st century people who don't feel comfortable uncritically replicating the bigotry present in the themes of earlier iterations of the game. Games are meant to be fun, and being presented with a world that echoes real-world stereotypes and prejudices with no support in the game's mechanics and lore for challenging them is not fun. D&D's audience has expanded, shifted in demographics, and is more willing to and better trained in turning a critical eye towards the media they engage with.

 

[Faolyn]

Your missing the obvious part: they don't WANT to leave or fight against thier leadership. They're indoctrinated, brainwashed, part of a nation-sized cult. Most of them have no reason or desire to fight the power. They're complicit. The vast majority of them would have been raised to tap into those feelings of bigotry, racial-superiorty, hatred and greed. It's a wild stew of Nazi Germany, Jim Crow and Jonestown. And your Drow who doesn't tow the line doesn't survive long enough to factor into that racial alignment census.

If you want to assume drow culture is capable of 21st century progressive thought, that's fine. It's your game. But I think it's a deep misreading of how drow culture and reduces them to "underdark humans with pointy ears".

The only reason why they don't want to leave or fight is because the DM has decided they don't want to do so, because the DM wants them to be Always Evil.

Quite frankly, throughout real human history there have always been humans who fought against human evils. It's not just 21st century thinking. And it doesn't even have to be that it's because their society does horrible things to non-drow. Most views into their society indicate that they (the nobility and priests) are pretty horrible even to each other.

And saying that the average drow really doesn't want anything to do with evil spider goddessess and their servitors does not make them "underdark humans with pointy ears," unless you have a DM who doesn't want to bother coming up with culture outside of evil spider goddesses and their servitors.

 

[Scribe]

Because D&D 5e is a game being played by 21st century people who don't feel comfortable uncritically replicating the bigotry present in the themes of earlier iterations of the game. Games are meant to be fun, and being presented with a world that echoes real-world stereotypes and prejudices with no support in the game's mechanics and lore for challenging them is not fun. D&D's audience has expanded, shifted in demographics, and is more willing to and better trained in turning a critical eye towards the media they engage with.

Exactly why there needs to be a new edition which removes these issues, and a new setting (or Eberron becomes the default) which 6e can lean into without literal decades of baggage.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Exactly why there needs to be a new edition which removes these issues, and a new setting (or Eberron becomes the default) which 6e can lean into without literal decades of baggage.

Yup. If modern folks can't appreciate D&D anymore, make a new edition that addresses these issues completely and couple it with a setting more in line with those sensibilities. Leave the rest behind.

 

[Remathilis]

The only reason why they don't want to leave or fight is because the DM has decided they don't want to do so, because the DM wants them to be Always Evil.

Yes. One nation of drow. Not all Drow.

Drow NPCs can be any alignment the DM chooses. Drow PCs can be any alignment the player wants. There is a famous drow character known for rejecting his culture and being good. Now, there are two additional Drow cultures that are explicitly not evil.

But none of that is good enough. Now evil Drow must be the minority and good Drow the majority.

So how about this: there are no evil cultures anymore. Not for drow, not for Red Wizards, none of them. Does that fix the problem?

 

[Faolyn]

Yes. One nation of drow. Not all Drow.

Drow NPCs can be any alignment the DM chooses. Drow PCs can be any alignment the player wants. There is a famous drow character known for rejecting his culture and being good. Now, there are two additional Drow cultures that are explicitly not evil.

But none of that is good enough. Now evil Drow must be the minority and good Drow the majority.

So how about this: there are no evil cultures anymore. Not for drow, not for Red Wizards, none of them. Does that fix the problem?

Yes, getting rid of evil cultures fixes the problem of evil cultures.

 

[Remathilis]

Yes, getting rid of evil cultures fixes the problem of evil cultures.

Good. Then every culture will be peaceful and work together. We've solved the Forgotten Realms, everyone can go home now.

 

[Remathilis]

Yup. If modern folks can't appreciate D&D anymore, make a new edition that addresses these issues completely and couple it with a setting more in line with those sensibilities. Leave the rest behind.

You know, I'm getting on board with this. Use 5e's mechanics as a starting point, but nuke the multiverse 4e-style and create a whole new setting that aligns to the new paradigm. You could probably clean house on a bunch of redundant races and monsters while your at it.

 

[PsyzhranV2]

Good. Then every culture will be peaceful and work together. We've solved the Forgotten Realms, everyone can go home now.

Cultures not being so uniform and lacking in depth that they can be carelessly painted over with a single shade of "good" or "evil" doesn't preclude the possibility of conflicts between different cultures, peoples, and nations.

 

[Galandris]

I'm almost positive one of the early writers who provided the text for Elves, in an old old version of the game or MM or something, essentially said yes, Elves are racist.

I've tried to find it recently, as they went about defending there position throughout the article, only to end with 'and yes, they are racist' or something like that.

I highly doubt that's official canon anymore though.

From the PHB's sidebar regarding elves -- so still canon, since it's the PHB -- :

Haughty but Gracious

Although they can be haughty, elves are generally gracious even to those who fall short of their considerable expectations, which is most non-elves. Still, they can find good in almost anyone.

Dwarves are dull, clumsy oafs, but what they lack in humor, sophistication and manners, they make up in valor and their best smiths produces art that approaches elven quality."

The sidebar is presented as the typical mindset of an elf... that's pretty racist, especially since they feel being gracious for expressing such an opinion on dwarves. While the PBH doesn't write that elves are racist, they propose an example of racism from elves right from third page that mention them... I suppose it won't survive 6e, though.

Cultures not being so uniform and lacking in depth that they can be carelessly painted over with a single shade of "good" or "evil" doesn't preclude the possibility of conflicts between different cultures, peoples, and nations.

It removes the possibility of war, though, because you can't really be a "good" culture and support war of agression or acts so heinous against your own population that they would warrant an agression by your neighbours on a humanitary basis. Unless you're an evil culture -- which isn't the same thing as having all their members evil. If we declare that slavery is evil, all societies before the abolition of slavery were evil, but that doesn't mean that all members of these societes were evil themselves (or the Higher Planes are pretty empty...). In fact, approaching most FR culture with our 21st century moral reference frame will probably warrant them to be painted as evil, despite being more enlightened then ours on a few fronts.

 

[DarkCrisis]

6th Ed is going to be wild. I fully expect a 4th Ed level of difference and would not be surprised if the Critical Role realm is the default

 

[Vaalingrade]

Good. Then every culture will be peaceful and work together. We've solved the Forgotten Realms, everyone can go home now.

Because not having an E in their stat block has prevented all conflict between nations in our world.

 

[PsyzhranV2]

It removes the possibility of war, though, because you can't really be a "good" culture and support war of agression or acts so heinous against your own population that they would warrant an agression by your neighbours on a humanitary basis. Unless you're an evil culture -- which isn't the same thing as having all their members evil. If we declare that slavery is evil, all societies before the abolition of slavery were evil, but that doesn't mean that all members of these societes were evil themselves (or the Higher Planes are pretty empty...). In fact, approaching most FR culture with our 21st century moral reference frame will probably warrant them to be painted as evil, despite being more enlightened then ours on a few fronts.

It's a waste of time to try and categorize entire cultures as "good" or "evil". Every culture has elements of both.

 

[Remathilis]

Because not having an E in their stat block has prevented all conflict between nations in our world.

Oh no, we're not talking about alignment. We can't have "evil" cultures. Slave holding cultures? No. Warmongering cultures? No. Expansionist cultures? Nope. Demon worshipping theocratic cultures? Nada. Farolyn said no evil cultures, so that's that.

I guess you could create a political system set up between rival powers compete over resources in a zero-sum gain situation or conflicts between religions where both sides hold deep conviction or other such "neither side is right or wrong" conflicts. Then again, I've always felt Monopoly would be better if it followed real world economic models as well.

 

[Dire Bare]

Makes you wonder why we're applying 21st century progressive thought to a 20th century game based on mythological archetypes dating back centuries or millennia before that.

That's easy. Because the players live in the 21st century, not an earlier time.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

6th Ed is going to be wild. I fully expect a 4th Ed level of difference and would not be surprised if the Critical Role realm is the default

The new Critical Role setting book, Tal'Dorei Reborn, is being published by their own company, Darrington Press.