This is a complete misrepresentation. You can still have cultures which support things we find abhorrent. You simply remove the convenient "Evil" label, which is really a synonym for "Other", not "Wrong".Oh no, we're not talking about alignment. We can't have "evil" cultures. Slave holding cultures? No. Warmongering cultures? No. Expansionist cultures? Nope. Demon worshipping theocratic cultures?
Can't have clave holding cultures?Oh no, we're not talking about alignment. We can't have "evil" cultures. Slave holding cultures?
The new Critical Role setting book, Tal'Dorei Reborn, is being published by their own company, Darrington Press.
The former is still true as of Explorer's Guide to Wildemount (though means for goblins to either have never been affected by the Curse of Strife or to be freed from it are presented), but in that book the latter is retconned as being false, but still believed by many (orc and otherwise).Tal'Dorei has goblins suffering a Curse of Strife by which Bane speaks in their minds and prod them toward Neutral Evil, while Orcs are cursed by Gruumsh and are all merciless killer to the point that people don't even believe in legends about good orcs. I am not sure people nowadays would tolerate entertainment of this nature.
For long years, orcs were feared as mindless abominations, drawn to slaughter like moths to a flame. Stories tell of how the blood of the Ruiner flows in the veins of all orcs, driving them to commit acts of terrible violence and anger.
Orcs and half-orcs do feel a certain pull toward violence and anger. But the simple truth is that there is no curse of ruin. No supernatural power drives orcs to kill. Rather, they are simply victims of the same selfish, violent impulses that corrupt all mortal beings.
Orcs are now renowned as some of the Dwendalian Empire's most accomplished soldiers, though many folk still fear the ancient legends of the curse of ruin. Half-orcs are proud of their heritage, though many are wary of the wrathful curse that supposedly drives them to violence. Other half-orcs reject the idea that they are destined for violence, and rely on faith, meditation, and friendship to live peaceful lives.
The city of Othe has a significant half-orc population. The city has long attracted orcs and half-orcs who believe that the curse of ruin has caused them to lash out at those they love.
The last one is particularly interesting, as the book clearly states that the Curse of Ruin does not exist, while the Curse of Strife does (though goblinkin born within the proximity of a Luxon Beacon are never affected by it, and the Vinewreathed Enclave are goblinkin worshipers of the goddess of nature who make it their mission to free goblins from the Curse of Strife). The recently concluded Exandria Unlimited also included a new locale that had peaceful goblin citizens, though a large society of goblinkin who follow Bane live to the south of them.Most orcs in Xhorhas have human or drow blood. In the culture of the Xhorhasian nomads, the union of orcs and goblinkin is strictly taboo, for the clans' elders fear the uncontrolled madness of a soul afflicted by both Gruumsh's curse of ruin and Bane's curse of strife.
No, evil is a synonym for evil. As in "this culture engages or condones one or more things that most people consider abhorrent. What people here apparently no longer accept is that a large group of people would engage in such actions willingly, which to me flies in the face of plenty of historical evidence. How many people accepted Nazism even if they weren't part of the party? How many joined the KKK or picnicked to watch lynchings? How many today defend police brutality? How many have joined cults and allowed the abuse done by thier leader?This is a complete misrepresentation. You can still have cultures which support things we find abhorrent. You simply remove the convenient "Evil" label, which is really a synonym for "Other", not "Wrong".
This completely solves the problem of "are people who live in a dictatorship evil?". Because there IS NO EVIL. It doesn't make what they do right, it makes them people who act as they do for reasons too complex to simply be labelled "Good" or "Evil".
And to pick up on one of your examples, why do you think a "demon worshipping theocratic culture" is wrong? Shouldn't people be free to worship whoever they please? Or is your objection to theocracy in general? If so, what makes it any worse than democracy (i.e. government by the best liars)?
In the real world, many religions were demonized by Christians as being the work of demons. The reason that devils in D&D are often horned and sometimes have goat-like legs is itself due to the demonization of the goat-like god Pan. This demonization of non-Christian religions in our history is probably a reason why some people find it uncomfortable in fantasy, even if in D&D and other games and media actual, for real demons and evil gods that command atrocities exist.To go to the example you picked out: the demon worshipping theocratic culture is bad because THEY WORSHIP DEMONS. This isn't modern Church of Satan which is a pisstake at other religions, they are active in serving the literal embodiment of evil and spreading misery and destruction. Is that not evil, or are we back to "demons aren't evil either" territory?
In the real world, many religions were demonized by Christians as being the work of demons. The reason that devils in D&D are often horned and sometimes have goat-like legs is itself due to the demonization of the goat-like god Pan. This demonization of non-Christian religions in our history is probably a reason why some people find it uncomfortable in fantasy, even if in D&D and other games and media actual, for real demons and evil gods that command atrocities exist.
I don't believe I've seen many people advocating for that, so no.So now we're heading back to 2e with tanar'ri and baatezu? Or maybe back to BECMI where they're are no outer-planar beings at all?
To go to the example you picked out: the demon worshipping theocratic culture is bad because THEY WORSHIP DEMONS. This isn't modern Church of Satan which is a pisstake at other religions, they are active in serving the literal embodiment of evil and spreading misery and destruction. Is that not evil, or are we back to "demons aren't evil either" territory?
Why are they being likened to Mexicans here, though? The Lolthites and their culture are a slaving oppressor class with a devotion to their oppressive god in their homelands rather than the marginalized. If anything the Lolthite drow are more akin to white supremacists.Having "most X" supporters of an evil society doesn't solve the problem in this case, because "Most X are bad people, except John, my X friend, which is fine" is a very common defense used by racist to "prove" that they are not racists. "Most Menzoberranzan are bad apples" is very much like "Most Mexicans are bad apples": not a line of thought some would want in their entertainment.
That's an oversimplification; if you look at the "Fiends, Lesser" entry on page 108 of Book One: Codex of the Immortals of Wrath of the Immortals (affiliate link), they're quite clearly the classic demons/tanar'ri of AD&D under different names (as the illustration makes clear):Or maybe back to BECMI where they're are no outer-planar beings at all?
No evil is "I don't approve of this". Like "women leaving the home and getting jobs is evil". It changes with time and culture.No, evil is a synonym for evil. As in "this culture engages or condones one or more things that most people consider abhorrent.
My fairly recent ancestors (about 2-3 generations back) benefited from the British Empire and the transatlantic slave trade. I think it would be arrogant in the extreme for me to claim to be a superior being because I do not approve of those things. Never mind being justified in killing them in the event that I time-travelled into the past.What people here apparently no longer accept is that a large group of people would engage in such actions willingly, which to me flies in the face of plenty of historical evidence.
Lots: and they are JUST LIKE YOU AND ME.How many people accepted Nazism even if they weren't part of the party? How many joined the KKK or picnicked to watch lynchings? How many today defend police brutality? How many have joined cults and allowed the abuse done by thier leader?
God, demon, what does it matter what they call the imaginary being they worship?To go to the example you picked out: the demon worshipping theocratic culture is bad because THEY WORSHIP DEMONS.
Then what they are doing wrong is "spreading misery and destruction", who they worship and how they are governed is irrelevant.This isn't modern Church of Satan which is a pisstake at other religions, they are active in serving the literal embodiment of evil and spreading misery and destruction. Is that not evil, or are we back to "demons aren't evil either" territory?
God, demon, what does it matter what they call the imaginary being they worship?
I'm assuming you don't use the default lore on demons such as Orcus and Demogorgon and such.Then what they are doing wrong is "spreading misery and destruction", who they worship and how they are governed is irrelevant.
If it's not 5e it's not canon.I'm assuming you don't use the default lore on demons such as Orcus and Demogorgon and such.
I'm assuming they don't believe that the "demon" section in the Monster Manual is real. Apparently, they all disappeared, along with Gods and other outer planar beings while I wasn't looking.I'm assuming you don't use the default lore on demons such as Orcus and Demogorgon and such.
Because you justified killing people based on skin color (even if the color you chose was red or blue or something equally fantastic). Which is wrong in real life, and this make it wrong in all their entertainment, because they choose not to draw the limit at this level.
LOL while all the rest of them are trying to look tough, that hezrou (or whatever it was called in the book in question) looks like a 5-year-old in his school picture...That's an oversimplification; if you look at the "Fiends, Lesser" entry on page 108 of Book One: Codex of the Immortals of Wrath of the Immortals (affiliate link), they're quite clearly the classic demons/tanar'ri of AD&D under different names (as the illustration makes clear):
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