[OOC] The Endless Falls Character Discussion Thread

[Kelleris]

And about Arion? At [o]ne [time] I see [a] ninja with murder in his eyes, [an]other time I see [a] bard[-]like guy ... playing [a] flute. First is [A]sian, [the] second is [E]nglish.*

Yeah, that's the idea. The thing to pay attention to is whether he has Akumunaga drawn or not. Basically, there are three personalities at work here. Arion has a "base" personality, which is very, very bardic. He makes snide comments, prances about giving speeches, and loses badly in melee combat of any kind.

Akumunaga's personality is sort of evilly good. It was designed from the beginning to kill people by whatever means necessary, but it is only sentient because Arion (a basically good person, and nearly a pacifist) has infused it with that portion of his being and those memories that he doesn't want to deal with as being part of himself. It's CG-CN, but an utterly ruthless version of said alignment.

When Arion has Akumunaga drawn (which he rarely does), these two are no longer separate personalities. They effectively form one composite entity that has a skill set significantly different from that of "base" Arion, and generally have killing someone or otherwise navigating some exceptionally dangerous situation on their mind. Think of this as being sorta like Arion goals and Akumunaga's methods.

*cough*

So I suppose the compromise here is to fill out the personality and appearance sections of my character sheet. I've been meaning to do so, but other things keep eating up the discretionary time I would use for that. I'm pretty lazy when it comes to that stuff anyway, as a rule...

* - I am a grammar nazi, just so you know. I don't mean to offend you, and I'll stop if you ask, but I try to correct posted quotations. Since you might be in the process of learning English, maybe you don't mind my corrections.

Worth is a term so highly subjective that it loses meaning. The rules are an objective way of determining worth (well at least partially). Arguing with rules actually allows you to make a coherent arguement without falling back to the emotional.

That's funny, the designers of the game certainly seem to disagree. In fact, they specifically say so in the GUIDELINES section you insist on referring to as a set of rules. They say that you should compare the costs so derived with items of similar value, because the GUIDELINES are not infallible rules. Wonder why they might've done that when worth is a meaningless term? Or why worth is clearly the standard they used in actually pricing a fair number of items in the DMG? Huh, how odd.

As for why I don't do what you did and boost my saves, it's for two reasons: a) I think what you've done is cheesy beyond my tolerance levels, and I don't want to do something like that, and b) I think my saves are just fine, and I rather look forward to rolling some saves with my fingers crossed, hoping for some number above 2. Plus, I've been saying we should all aim for some range (I proposed one, but I'm not married to it), not that you, in particular and in company with nobody else, should lower your saves.

I've been giving concrete examples all along, but since you don't realize that GUIDELINES are not rules, my major complaints will just meet with a shrug and a no, as you've amply demonstrated. The mindset that abusing the pricing GUIDELINES with spells like greater heroism is just being "efficient" and not dishonest isn't one that I can communicate with in any valuable way. Aside from that, despite your supposed willingness to compromise, which I don't recall reading, you have never proposed a compromise solution to either something I have suggested for Arion or something someone has suggested for Rahveon. I don't see this trend changing in the future, given how your arguments have run.

Without going over CR 30 and without playing around with templates, I can reach 54 DC playing with non-exotic feats and items. That is just using the SRD. Throw in Epic spells (which have been banned from us, but not neccesarily from Isida) and that number goes through the roof.

Really? I can't do it. Perivas can't do it. Maybe you can, but why should we force the DM to do something that's obviously quite difficult? It seems to me that we should just let her make a reasonable NPC mage, without twinking him to the limit, and have him play well against us. You seem to be of the opinion that we are playing against the DM somehow, that she has a responsibility to make characters as broken as possible to counter our PCs, which are in turn as broken as possible. Personally, I think we should make reasonable characters, so Isida doesn't have to cheat or scour her books looking for the optimal build to challenge us.

 

[Ferrix]

I didn't realize people thought of Sigrun as bald.. maybe I have to relook at that picture I linked but he's really got a full head of hair.

I wouldn't mind taking my saves down a notch or two, give me some money to spend elsewhere (physical defense or something like that). The only reason I really did notch them up so much was to make them a slightly closer match to Rahveon's.

I find Kelleris has a good point that the guidelines in the back of the DMG for item creation are just that, guidelines and references to existing items should be made. Sure that usually means the DM has to get involved, but I think some level of self-regulation is important.

I actually had a pretty good picture of Arion, and it basically comes off as how Kelleris described him, a fractured person depending upon whether the blade is out or not. Glad I didn't go with my original concept or you guys would be twirling in your heads with a bipolar paladin/antipaladin.

About the saves, Sigrun can manage a DC 44 with say Energy Burst if I had chosen it as a power. I'll make the save say 40% of the time, if it was a power that had a Will save however, say mind thrust which I can augment to a DC 44, I'd make the save 85% of the time. If all my saves are up around +41 or more, then it's really not a challenge. And although Sigrun isn't tweaked out for high DC's, the DC's he can manage are still quite respectable.

 

[Wrahn]

They are guidelines, yes, for THE GAME MASTER. Making assumptions without explaination or permission is only making the game masters job more difficult. And no the designers agree with me, PLAYERS need to ask THE GAME MASTER if they want a change in the rules.

again,

We are PLAYERS, we get to follow the rules

Isida is THE GAME MASTER, she gets to follow the guidelines, if she chooses.

and Kelleris, I find it difficult to believe that someone who took a level of Duelist (3.0) has a maximum cheesiness quotient.

To get the 54 DC, all I did was take an Elder Titan, gave him a roll 18 Wisdom, moved some feats around to give him improved spell capacity (x6) and Improved Heighten, Amulet of the Arcanist, Inherent Bonus +5, +12 Enhancement bonus. Plus school specialization, I probably could have gotten it higher, just didn't want to take the time to figure it out. (Heighten x6 Implosion)

Playing around with templates and getting complicated can easily get higher DCs. Ah well, some people I suppose would view the Elder Titan build as complicated, perhaps I have been playing the game too long as I don't.

 

[Ferrix]

I would actually say an Elder Titan is no where near an "average" spellcaster. When I normally look at average, I'm looking at ECL and CR, not just CR which is a whole other ball game.

A seventy hit dice outsider is not anywhere near the realm of a 30 HD human wizard.

 

[Wrahn]

I would actually say an Elder Titan is no where near an "average" spellcaster. When I normally look at average, I'm looking at ECL and CR, not just CR which is a whole other ball game.

A seventy hit dice outsider is not anywhere near the realm of a 30 HD human wizard.

Yeah, the only thing they have in common is the same challenge rating.

 

[Ferrix]

Yeah but the Elder Titan is ECL 70+,
Pit the Elder Titan against a wizard 30 and the wizard is toast.

 

[Kelleris]

Blech... Think I'm coming down with something...

To get the 54 DC, all I did was take an Elder Titan, gave him a roll 18 Wisdom, moved some feats around to give him improved spell capacity (x6) and Improved Heighten, Amulet of the Arcanist, Inherent Bonus +5, +12 Enhancement bonus. Plus school specialization, I probably could have gotten it higher, just didn't want to take the time to figure it out. (Heighten x6 Implosion)

That is an insane number of hoops to jump through to make a completely twinked out save character. Whether a 70-HD outsider should even be CR 30 is highly doubtful to begin with. And you still need all of a 13 with your worst save against his very best spells. Your example is so skewed it's ridiculous.

You logic regarding the guidelines baffles me. Well, it doesn't actually, but it would if I thought you were looking at it from an even remotely unbiased point of view. Are you seriously saying that using the DM-only guidelines as the end-all and be-all rules is right, because they're somehow only guidelines for the DM?

As for the level of Duelist. Yes, it is cheesy, quite so. Which made me work all the harder to avoid the cheese in other areas, especially items. Please note how few inanely underpriced items I have, if any. Aside from that, let's look at how my AC stacks up against the rest of the party:

Arion: 57 (66 melee)
Sigrun: 47
Rahveon: 56
Solarion: 68
Caira: 37
Tsunami: 58
Pilmer: 54
Su'ryuu: 47

In other words, right into the upper-middle of the melee people. I honestly think it's a bit high, but it matches well with my attack bonus, and I have to be able to stand in the same melees as the characters you made. Arion has a high AC and low hit points, and I had to add some cheese to get that effect.

On the other hand, your lack of restraint is almost stunning. The difference between the saves of the two characters you made and those of everyone else hardly needs to be pointed out yet again. That was not done because your character should have good saves as part of his character concept, it was done because you could, and because you apparently have a phobia of rolling a d20.

Ferrix admits that he is willing to lower his saves if you are, and he's the only person even remotely in the same ballpark, and only because he wants to be able to save against the same things that Isida chooses to throw at you and the other character you made. I think that makes the consensus opinion that your saves are cheesy to a much greater degree than my AC.

And, for that matter, if I thought I could get away with it, I would drop Duelist in a snap. I really don't like having it on there, but the numbers of the people that I will be sharing melee space with necessitate it.

Or how about this? I'll drop it anyway, if you'll agree to do something about your saves, along with the rest of us. If the Duelist level is bothering you all that much, if you demand perfection before you'll agree even to improvement, I'd be willing to do that.

 

[Kelleris]

Off Topic Post: Just FYI, Ferrix, the second Dronus game thread is up. You can find a link in any of the three OOC threads.

 

[Isida Kep'Tukari]

I am about two posts away from seriously kicking someone's butt halfway into next week.

 

[Kelleris]

Please don't. We started this thread specifically so you wouldn't have to worry about it, or even look at it. If we decide to do anything major, we'll ask in the OOC thread, in nice polite language. So far all that's happened is that I've dropped a feat that wasn't on your approved list to begin with.

This is just to work things out so far offscreen that it doesn't even make the OOC headlines. Please ignore us. We don't want to bother you, which is why this thread is over here, away from the OOC thread that you do have reason to check often.