(OT) Hmmm Star Wars II Seen it I have! Continued

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Maybe, or maybe not. Anakin has been a Jedi Padawan for 10 years. What if Obi-Wan and him in 10 years have never once been a bodyguard for someone. Its no longer arrogant assumption. It is now a statement of fact. If Jedi are never used as bodyguard then it does raise an eyebrow when they are suddenly used in that role.

That's the role they were in during most of TPM. "We are here to protect you..." etc. Even Qui-Gon, who was known for going beyond the mandate of the Council, held the line then.

 

[Eosin the Red]

Personally, I thought Qui-Gon Jinn was the Jedi who really had things right. He always put people ahead of the rules, which is why he was on the outs with the Council.

I think Qui-Gon was used to show us what Jedi should be - a foil if you will. I think he was the embodiment of Jedi ideals. Others followed the rules strait into the abyss.

At some level I believe that the Jedi we know well all serve to show us different aspects of the force.


Yoda - The wise master, made more so by his culpability for the fall of the Jedi.

Mace - The rightious warrior.

Obi-Wan -- The man who followed the rules, because nobody else was.

Qui-Gong - listens only to the force, more elemental.


Another thought about the Jedi children. 1,000 generations ago several infants did not up and leave their parents so they could form the order. THe order was formed by adults who had studied the force. Somewhere along the lines people knew their parents and it did not destroy the order? Why change?

Possessive relationships are the bane of the Jedi especially marriage (which BTW is an institue dedicated to the orderly disburcement of property, not love).

Tradition has clouded the minds and history of the jedi. Sure, love is dangerous but you can not face fear, anger, & hate with emptiness. It doesn't work. Vader was lost. His son who had FAITH in his father faced, the darkness alone. His HOPE that there was still goodness in the Sith Lord allowed him to confront his deepest fears. The LOVE of the last Jedi redeemed Vader.



Several folks have made some excellent observation BTW.

 

[Ristamar]

This does lead to the fact that through the force Yoda knew DArth Vader was on Bespin and did nothing to warn him. Luke may have changed his actions if Yoda had simply said:

"Go you should not, the slayer of all the Jedi is at Bespin. Against Darth Vader no chance you will have at this time."

No... You're reaching here. Both Luke and Yoda obviously knew it was a trap, one likely set by Vader. Just before Luke left Dagobah, Obi-Wan clearly warned Luke that if he chose to face Vader, he'd have to do it alone, for he could not interfere. A moment later, Yoda stated, "Strong is Vader, mind what you have learned!" Seems to be a pretty blatant warning to me from both Yoda AND Obi-Wan.

As for faulting Obi-Wan for his admonishment of Anakin... well, I disagree on that issue, as well. Anakin was publically disobedient and disrespectful toward his Master. At least Obi-Wan kept his criticisms of Qui-Gonn private after Qui-Gonn chose to go against the councel's wishes. I'd elaborate further, but I have some things to attend to, so I'll bow out of the discussion for the time being.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Not really. They were sent to discover the Sith. The Jedi were using Amidala as little better than bait.

That's the role they were in during most of TPM. "We are here to protect you..." etc. Even Qui-Gon, who was known for going beyond the mandate of the Council, held the line then.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Really? We know that it was a trap just becuase Han says they never asked him any questions, they just tortured him. So it is obvious for us. How though could Luke have known this? Leia and Han are probably #1 and #2 on the most wanted list of the Empire. So catching them is quite a goal unto itself.

You are right about knowing that Vader was there. I forgot about the last minute message.

How was he disrepectful? Not enough bowing and scraping for you? He was asked a question (sort of) and gave a reasoned responce that using Jedi for this job was overkill. Obi-Wan did not really diasgree either since when he found out later that Anakin and Padme were using her as bait he did nothing to stop it.

You know Jedi are not too quick either. If either of them had been really smart they would have known the plan was intended to fail. If you can fly a droid right to the window and drop in to killer bugs then you could have just as easily loaded the droid with a bomb and blown Amidala up. Then it wouldnt matter if there were Jedi around or not.

The use of LIVING bugs to kill her made it a given that a Jedi would sense them and stop the attack.

No... You're reaching here. Both Luke and Yoda obviously knew it was a trap, one likely set by Vader. Just before Luke left Dagobah, Obi-Wan clearly warned Luke that if he chose to face Vader, he'd have to do it alone, for he could not interfere. A moment later, Yoda stated, "Strong is Vader, mind what you have learned!" Seems to be a pretty blatant warning to me from both Yoda AND Obi-Wan.

As for faulting Obi-Wan for his admonishment of Anakin... well, I disagree on that issue, as well. Anakin was publically disobedient and disrespectful toward his Master. At least Obi-Wan kept his criticisms of Qui-Gonn private after Qui-Gonn chose to go against the councel's wishes. I'd elaborate further, but I have some things to attend to, so I'll bow out of the discussion for the time being.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Yoda - The wise master, made more so by his culpability for the fall of the Jedi.
Mace - The rightious warrior.
Obi-Wan -- The man who followed the rules, because nobody else was.
Qui-Gon - listens only to the force, more elemental.

I think that Mace will also come to embody the arrogance that helped lead to the downfall of the Jedi. He is a great warrior, but unlike Yoda, it is not tempered by wisdom. I think Yoda is already beginning to see where things are headed, but I think it will take Mace by surprise.

Another thought about the Jedi children. 1,000 generations ago several infants did not up and leave their parents so they could form the order. THe order was formed by adults who had studied the force. Somewhere along the lines people knew their parents and it did not destroy the order? Why change?

The Sith. I imagine the Sith were the reason they changed it. Lucas has said that the first Sith was a fallen Jedi. I imagine he was a lot like Anakin: an idealist, somewhat naive, who lost what he loved the most. Like Anakin, his life had been given meaning by the Force, so he embraced the same idea that Anakin did, "If I had been POWERFUL enough in the Force, I could have prevented this." So, driven to seek personal power, this Sith would have corrupted others. This led to the war between the Jedi and Sith that all the books talk about. In the wake of that war, surveying the destruction caused, ultimately, by the selfishness of ONE Jedi, they would have begun to weed out causes of selfishness. This would expand over time, to weeding out attachments, and even a sense of self. A good idea carried perhaps a bit too far. They divested themselves of passions and attachments, and in doing so, isolated themselves too much.

Possessive relationships are the bane of the Jedi especially marriage (which BTW is an institue dedicated to the orderly disburcement of property, not love).

Originally, perhaps, but the troubadours changed that in Western culture. And if you watched the romantic scenes in AotC, I think it's clear Lucas was proceeding from that tradition.

Tradition has clouded the minds and history of the jedi. Sure, love is dangerous but you can not face fear, anger, & hate with emptiness. It doesn't work. Vader was lost. His son who had FAITH in his father faced, the darkness alone. His HOPE that there was still goodness in the Sith Lord allowed him to confront his deepest fears. The LOVE of the last Jedi redeemed Vader.

Agreed. Ultimately, Anakin balanced the Force by creating one Jedi who was doing the right thing, his son. Qui-Gon Jinn talked about the Will of the Force, and there's a great deal of talk throughout the series of Destiny, that those who can feel the Force have things they are MEANT to do. I think the Will of the Force has a notion of how it SHOULD be used and that it created Anakin to bring the users of the Force back in line, not only by killing the last Sith Lord, but also by cleansing the Jedi. The Sith are an abberation. The Jedi are guided by the Force. The Sith twist the Force to their purposes. They must be removed to bring balance. But the Jedi, too, are not truly following the Will of the Force. They are more interested in their rules and codes than in trusting to the Force. I think Yoda and Obi-Wan will come to realize that Qui-Gon was the one who had it right. Remember when Obi-Wan was instructing Luke in ANH? "You must let go your conscious self and trust your instincts." "Stretch out with your feelings." "Let go." I have a hard time with the rules-conscious Obi-Wan of the first two movies being so able to let go of intellect. Those sound more like things Qui-Gon would say. Did say, in fact, to Anakin, "Feel. Don't think. Use your instincts."

And Anakin had it right when he said that compassion is essential to a Jedi. What's so compassionate about locking yourself up in a Temple and acting as diplomats and political advisors? The Jedi should be using their skills and powers for the benefit of all life, no matter the scale of the cause.

Sorry about the book... I get a little verbose sometimes...

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

How was he disrepectful? Not enough bowing and scraping for you? He was asked a question (sort of) and gave a reasoned responce that using Jedi for this job was overkill. Obi-Wan did not really diasgree either since when he found out later that Anakin and Padme were using her as bait he did nothing to stop it.

Yes, but Anakin picked a really BAD time to contradict his Master. He went over Obi-Wan's head in public, right after Obi-Wan had just stated their reasons for being there. It would have been much more appropriate to wait until they were alone to argue the specifics of their mandate. And when Obi-Wan told him to back down, he should have done it. Pushing the issue made them BOTH look bad, and led to Obi-Wan's having to shut him up with the "You WILL learn your place" line, which, I agree was a bit much in public, but Anakin deserved it for jumping so far OUT of his place.

 

[Ristamar]

Yes, but Anakin picked a really BAD time to contradict his Master. He went over Obi-Wan's head in public, right after Obi-Wan had just stated their reasons for being there. It would have been much more appropriate to wait until they were alone to argue the specifics of their mandate. And when Obi-Wan told him to back down, he should have done it. Pushing the issue made them BOTH look bad, and led to Obi-Wan's having to shut him up with the "You WILL learn your place" line, which, I agree was a bit much in public, but Anakin deserved it for jumping so far OUT of his place.

Exactly... I completely agree. There's also the tone which Anakin used. He merely could've suggested or discussed it in a more civil manner. Instead, he sounded arrogant and headstrong, having a 'I don't care what you say, I'm right, you're wrong, and I'll do what I want" air about him. Hardly the tone a student should take up against his Master.

Originally posted by DocMoriartty
Really? We know that it was a trap just becuase Han says they never asked him any questions, they just tortured him. So it is obvious for us. How though could Luke have known this? Leia and Han are probably #1 and #2 on the most wanted list of the Empire. So catching them is quite a goal unto itself.

Fairly simple answer here...

BEN: It is you and your abilities the Emperor wants. That is why your friends are made to suffer.

LUKE: And that is why I have to go.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

As I said before though, Anakin was completely correct. To think that two Jedi (when there are very few to go around) are to be wasted as rent a cops just because it will make some bimbo Senator happy is just stupid.

In fact I think Yoda senses this when it happens. Mace Windu is the one that immediatly says yes to the Chancellors plan.

Furthermore as soon as the Jedi realize a bounty hunter is involved Mace goes ahead and changes thei orders anyway.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

As I said before though, Anakin was completely correct. To think that two Jedi (when there are very few to go around) are to be wasted as rent a cops just because it will make some bimbo Senator happy is just stupid.

In fact I think Yoda senses this when it happens. Mace Windu is the one that immediatly says yes to the Chancellors plan.

Furthermore as soon as the Jedi realize a bounty hunter is involved Mace goes ahead and changes thei orders anyway.

I'm not trying to be snarky here, but it sounds like you're arguing that those who are correct get to ignore the rules. Either that or Anakin is picking up on the intent of Palpatine more so than the Jedi Council and Obi-Wan, which isn't exactly a good thing, either.