Parties screwed without an Int-based PC?

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, but when players focus their characters, by taking a 20, they WILL be a lot more narrow than if they take an 18 in their primary stat, or heaven forbid a 16 (which lets you really be a very generalist character and still capable at your main shtick). If you have a party of 5 specialists, then there is likely to be something that the party lacks in terms of expertise in some area. Probably someone will be OK at that thing, but not top notch.

If every weakness in every party is just house-ruled away, then you have nothing but 20 primary stat characters! Why WOULD a group of players ever build otherwise? INT is a key stat for knowledge in particular and any party that is short on having a 14 or 16 int character in it is going to have problems.

Now, the way to handle those problems IMHO is proper adventure design. In other words if the low int party misses the magic detection check then they simply miss an option they could have taken to make the adventure go down a different path. One that maybe relies on less combat and more skills. It isn't necessarily a BETTER option, but a different one that rewards a different type of focus.

If the low int party misses a magic item, then well, they will be short an item. Not a huge tragedy. In fact it is exactly the way things SHOULD be. They took awesome stats to be better in combat. The high int party instead found the nice magic item that gives them a similar (but maybe a bit lesser) combat edge. After all, both groups sooner or later are going to face boss man, and both will have to win a fight. So I actually see the "high int group can get some reward for it" as a feature, not a bug.

Of course it isn't a perfect example either, the group could be simply super optimized in INT and another group in WIS, etc. Where it really should be nice is the case where you need TWO characters that are reasonably good at something instead of one that is super good. Adventure design in 4e really is an art form!

 

[LittleFuzzy]

Finding an item (magic or not) is Perception.

Knowing that an item is magic or not is Arcana.

Nothing in the rules says that the only way to know an item is magical is to use the trained Detect Magic action from the Arcana skill. The DM decides how obvious magic is in his game world, there are no rules covering it. Making all magic indistinguishable from the mundane, so that such a skill check is the only way to notice magic, is just as much a choice as having items constantly flare with power.

 

[Ryujin]

Nothing in the rules says that the only way to know an item is magical is to use the trained Detect Magic action from the Arcana skill. The DM decides how obvious magic is in his game world, there are no rules covering it. Making all magic indistinguishable from the mundane, so that such a skill check is the only way to notice magic, is just as much a choice as having items constantly flare with power.

Certainly if an opponent is waving around a sword with a blade made of pure flame then the players are going to have more than a vague idea that the item is magic, but what about those old worn and dirty Catstep Boots?

Given rituals like Transfer Enchantment, there seems to be every reason to believe that items may well look absolutely average. Only Elric (the literary character, not the poster) strides through massive cities with impunity, while wearing a massive black, rune-carved sword on his hip. Certainly some magic items will draw attention to themselves by their very nature but to assume that all will would be mistaken, especially in a world where magic seems to be an integral part of the economy.

 

[Keenath]

Certainly if an opponent is waving around a sword with a blade made of pure flame then the players are going to have more than a vague idea that the item is magic, but what about those old worn and dirty Catstep Boots?

They still probably look unusual. This still depends on the DM. Some DMs are going to say that magic boots, dirty though they may be, are still embroidered with silver thread or made out of dragon-hide and thus clearly special. Again, it's a decision to make the boots unremarkable as much as it is to make them obvious.

Given rituals like Transfer Enchantment, there seems to be every reason to believe that items may well look absolutely average.

Does not follow, I'm afraid. A DM would be perfectly justified in saying you can't just transfer enchantments into any old item; that it has to be a high-quality item to begin with. Equally, a DM would be justified in saying that the act of putting magic into an item causes it to become distinctive, shedding sparkles or turning jet-black or growing claws out of the toes or what-have-you.

This is the way I handled it in my game -- the player found a lifedrinker longsword with a leering vampire face on the hilt; he wanted to transfer the magic to his mundane greataxe, so when he did, the leering face appears in the middle of the blade. He didn't get a magic greataxe that looked mundane; his mundane axe transformed to look magic.

Only Elric (the literary character, not the poster) strides through massive cities with impunity, while wearing a massive black, rune-carved sword on his hip. Certainly some magic items will draw attention to themselves by their very nature but to assume that all will would be mistaken, especially in a world where magic seems to be an integral part of the economy.

Why would that be mistaken?

Can you tell the difference between cheap vinyl shoes and expensive calfskin? Can you tell a nylon jacket from goretex by handling it? Can you distinguish between wool and angora? Of course you can!

Magic items are high quality, worth thousands of times more than normal stuff. Even if they don't glow, they should be drawing attention simply by being well-made items, just like a leather jacket is obviously superior to nylon. Bilbo didn't need to see Sting glow to tell that it's a magic blade, nor did Ron Weasley need to be told that Harry's gift was an Invisibility Cloak. He recognized it instantly. (I believe his response was an instant "Cor blimey!", which is a bowdlerized "God damn me!")

Why would a fighter in a world full of magic items be unable to tell when a pair of boots are something special?


Sure, you can decide that items are not remarkable in your world unless specifically made so, but that's far from the default assumption, and far from "every reason to believe".

 

[Nail]

Knowing that an item is magic or not is Arcana.

Nope.

As you said:

Identifying the properties of one magic item per short rest (assuming that you know it's magic in nature) requires no skill.

Where does it say you need to know first?

 

[Ryujin]

Nope.

As you said: Where does it say you need to know first?

You don't, but which of the 47 swords you just collected before your short rest do you choose as the one that you identify the properties of?

 

[Ryujin]

This is the way I handled it in my game -- the player found a lifedrinker longsword with a leering vampire face on the hilt; he wanted to transfer the magic to his mundane greataxe, so when he did, the leering face appears in the middle of the blade. He didn't get a magic greataxe that looked mundane; his mundane axe transformed to look magic.

I rather like that and will likely rip it off, if you don't mind. In my campaigns, however, many of the most powerful items and virtually all of the artifacts tend to be quite mundane in appearance. That's how they go unnoticed and unfound for centuries.

 

[Nail]

You don't, but which of the 47 swords you just collected before your short rest do you choose as the one that you identify the properties of?

You attack 47 enemies in one encounter? Wow; you're one tough cookie.

Only magical items have magical properties, so you go through the items trying to identify properties until you find an item that qualifies. After you've found one, then the next party memebr can do the same to the rest of the items. If there are more that 5 magic items per haul of loot....well, I wanna join your group!

 

[Ryujin]

I'd call that an assumption not supported by a rigid interpretation of the rules

 

[Nail]

I'd call that an assumption not supported by a rigid interpretation of the rules

Really?

Identifying Magic Items
Most of the time, you can determine the properties
and powers of a magic item during a short rest. In the
course of handling the item for a few minutes, you
discover what the item is and what it does. You can
identify one magic item per short rest.

#1) How do you determine "what the item is and what it does"?

#2) If an item is not magical, can you determine what the item is and what it does?

#3) Is there a limit to how many non-magical items you can identify in this manner?