Parties screwed without an Int-based PC?

[KarinsDad]

Only magical items have magical properties, so you go through the items trying to identify properties until you find an item that qualifies. After you've found one, then the next party memebr can do the same to the rest of the items.

This is questionable.

The rules do not state one way or the other, but the rules do state how to detect a magical item.

So, I think the burden of proof is on the side that claims that you can handle an item and instantly know that it is NOT magical (and hence by default, quickly search through the 47 swords to find a magical one).

In the case of the 47 swords, which one is magical? Either Detect Magic points it out, or the DM is generous and tells his players which are and which are not, or x number of short rests go by (~5 short rests max at 5 minutes per short rest, 5 PCs, and a few minutes per handling of each of the 47 items) until one of the PCs finds it.

 

[Jhaelen]

This is questionable.

The rules do not state one way or the other, but the rules do state how to detect a magical item.

So, I think the burden of proof is on the side that claims that you can handle an item and instantly know that it is NOT magical (and hence by default, quickly search through the 47 swords to find a magical one).

LOL? Are you being serious?

In the case of the 47 swords, which one is magical? Either Detect Magic points it out, or the DM is generous and tells his players which are and which are not, or x number of short rests go by (~5 short rests max at 5 minutes per short rest, 5 PCs, and a few minutes per handling of each of the 47 items) until one of the PCs finds it.

What DM in his right mind will put 47 swords that are completely indistinguishable from each other into a room or encounter and have one them be magical but not the others?!

I guess, I'm a generous DM, because it will always be apparent from my descriptions which items will be worth taking. Most often they're used by 'boss' monsters or important npcs.
Magic items will also always be of superior quality. About the only thing that may happen is that an item that looks unusual isn't magical but 'only' of higher value or important for a story.

 

[Ryujin]

In the parlance of D&D, of any revision, the concepts 'detect' and 'identify' have clear connotations.

The ubiquitous 47 swords need not be completely indistingushable from each other. They need not all be off poor, workmanlike, or superior quality. So what do you do if there are 47 swords of superior quality, that have all been gleaned from a batch of elite soldiers? Palace guards, perhaps?

 

[KarinsDad]

LOL? Are you being serious?
What DM in his right mind will put 47 swords that are completely indistinguishable from each other into a room or encounter and have one them be magical but not the others?!

This is a thought experiment and not mine to begin with.

Go with it, or not. But, no need to be sarcastic.

I guess, I'm a generous DM, because it will always be apparent from my descriptions which items will be worth taking. Most often they're used by 'boss' monsters or important npcs.
Magic items will also always be of superior quality. About the only thing that may happen is that an item that looks unusual isn't magical but 'only' of higher value or important for a story.

This is also a rules forum. When the rules are ambiguous, we discuss alternatives.

You like to spoon feed your players and give them insta-knowledge and not have them actually put in an effort to discover things? That's fine.

I like to follow rules like Detect Magic to actually, I don't know, DETECT MAGIC. That to me is why that rule is there.

That too is fine and from my POV, actually follows the rules closer.

 

[Nail]

So, I think the burden of proof is on the side that claims that you can handle an item and instantly know that it is NOT magical....

Can you determine the properties of a magic item if you handle it?

If the item has no magical properties, is it a magic item?

If the first item is not a magic item, and you put it down and pick up another item that is a magic item, can you identify its properties?

 

[KarinsDad]

Can you determine the properties of a magic item if you handle it?

If the item has no magical properties, is it a magic item?

If the first item is not a magic item, and you put it down and pick up another item that is a magic item, can you identify its properties?

Note my sentence that you responded to: "So, I think the burden of proof is on the side that claims that you can handle an item and instantly know that it is NOT magical...."

We have two rules:

1) Use Arcana to Detect a Magic Item.
2) Use a few minutes to Identify a single Magic Item.

We are trying to extrapolate a third rule from these two:

3) How can we detect magic using rule #2 without using rule #1?

I opine that we can (the DM can do whatever he wants), but it takes a few minutes per item to do so using rule #2. No magical properties are found, so the PC moves on.

I do not find it reasonable to use rule #2 to instantly determine that an item is not magical. A few minutes, no problem.

But, either interpretation is an extrapolation of the rules into house rules territory.

The real rule is #1.

If one wants to detect a magical item, one uses the Arcana skill. That's the actual rule. One cannot use rule #2 to detect a magical item BEYOND identifying it's properties. 47 swords = 47 * a few minutes each.

Rule #2 does not give one the option of NOT using a few minutes each.

 

[Ryujin]

Note my sentence that you responded to: "So, I think the burden of proof is on the side that claims that you can handle an item and instantly know that it is NOT magical...."

We have two rules:

1) Use Arcana to Detect a Magic Item.
2) Use a few minutes to Identify a single Magic Item.

We are trying to extrapolate a third rule from these two:

3) How can we detect magic using rule #2 without using rule #1?

I opine that we can (the DM can do whatever he wants), but it takes a few minutes per item to do so using rule #2. No magical properties are found, so the PC moves on.

I do not find it reasonable to use rule #2 to instantly determine that an item is not magical. A few minutes, no problem.

But, either interpretation is an extrapolation of the rules into house rules territory.

The real rule is #1.

If one wants to detect a magical item, one uses the Arcana skill. That's the actual rule. One cannot use rule #2 to detect a magical item BEYOND identifying it's properties. 47 swords = 47 * a few minutes each.

Rule #2 does not give one the option of NOT using a few minutes each.

Not to mention the fact that it takes a skilled Arcanist one full minute to sense the presence of magic. Being able to use the other features of the Arcana skill are predicated upon being able to either detect the presence of magic or otherwise be able to see its effects (ie. a party member just got fried by that area, over by the door). Are we to believe that an unskilled person can do more than someone who is trained in such a complex skill, simply because it occurs during a short rest? The detection of magic takes long enough that it can't reasonably be performed during combat, as it is.

 

[Keenath]

i rather like that and will likely rip it off, if you don't mind.

No! My idea! You can't have it!

 

[Nail]

Are we to believe that an unskilled person can do more than someone who is trained in such a complex skill, simply because it occurs during a short rest?

You might be stumbling over the idea of "more".

A PC, regardless of proficient skills, can identify the properties of one magic item during a short rest.

A PC, trained in Arcana, can identify the properties of one magic item during a short rest...and can do much more than that if he or she choses. I'd say the "more" lies with the trained guy.

I opine that we can (the DM can do whatever he wants), but it takes a few minutes per item to do so using rule #2. No magical properties are found, so the PC moves on.

I do not find it reasonable to use rule #2 to instantly determine that an item is not magical. A few minutes, no problem.

Sure. No land-speed records need be set here.

However, it's not clear how long it takes a PC to determine the properties of a non-magical item, right?

 

[Ryujin]

You might be stumbling over the idea of "more".

A PC, regardless of proficient skills, can identify the properties of one magic item during a short rest.

A PC, trained in Arcana, can identify the properties of one magic item during a short rest...and can do much more than that if he or she choses. I'd say the "more" lies with the trained guy.

Sure. No land-speed records need be set here.

However, it's not clear how long it takes a PC to determine the properties of a non-magical item, right?

Under your basic concept an Arcanist can tell that 20 specific items in a given area are magical, but any thud can roll a sword around in his hands and not only determine that it's magical, but every little thing about its capabilities.

Under mine you need to have someone who can tell you what is actually magical after which time anyone can determine what it will do after a short rest... OR... anyone can check one item per 5 per short rest, but has no idea if it's magical or not until after they've examined it. If you want to take the better part of an hour to determine what the specific properties of 10 separate items are, then go nuts.

Anyway, I'm out. No one is going to be changing their minds about this.