D&D General Playstyle vs Mechanics

[bloodtide]

And that's where I don't understand what "heavy prep" really means. I have a homebrew world. I don't spend a lot of time on prep for games yet I was told that it was heavy prep. On the other hand I know people who spend a ton of time running modules that spend far more time on prep than I do because the games are heavy on dungeon crawls and similar.

Well, writing and typing up paragraphs of detail and lore for the game world. Adding pictures and maps. Adding sets for miniatures. Adding play lists and music.

 

[hawkeyefan]

I mean, we got to the point where we either need frequent divine intervention or a universe spanning UPS to justify the feature, seems pretty self-explanatory how it does

I think you missed the actual points people were making.

@prabe mentioned the idea of fate not as a specific explanation, but simply that such ideas will suit some settings more than others, and in such settings could therefore help explain coincidences and the like.

@prabe then mentioned the USPS to point out how, although we in the real world don't often actually personally know the people involved, we know the process and ways to engage with them to get things done. The idea here is that the criminal character knows about things like thieves' cant and graffiti or similar customs that can put him in touch with people who can deliver messages. The character knows how the underworld works and can use that knowledge. He doesn't need to always know someone specifically.

And here's the main thing... there doesn't need to be one explanation to explain how the character is well-connected. In one city... maybe one near the character's home town... he might know someone personally. But a city that's further away? Maybe his cousin once worked with a guy there, and they were close, so the character knows to seek that person out. In another city, maybe he knows how to signal that he's a freelancer in need of some local help, and then is contacted by a local guildmember. There can be all kinds of reasons.

There doesn't need to be one single explanation. As I said, approach the idea with some sense of creativity... look at the relevant factors in each case and come up with something that makes sense.

I mean, if you put zero effort into this, then of course you'll be dissatisfied with the results.

 

[mamba]

There doesn't need to be one single explanation. As I said, approach the idea with some sense of creativity... look at the relevant factors in each case and come up with something that makes sense.

as I said in the beginning, there is nothing that makes sense. A coincidence works once, but if you keep relying on it, it just becomes unbelievable, and rightfully so

I mean, if you put zero effort into this, then of course you'll be dissatisfied with the results.

I am not dissatisfied with the result of cutting stuff like this out…

As far as I am concerned I came up with something that makes sense, they can reach their contact via messengers the know within in a local region, and anything beyond that requires them making new contacts (not finding new messengers…). I consider this a lot better than the broken background the PHB has

 

[hawkeyefan]

as I said in the beginning, there is nothing that makes sense. A coincidence works once, but if you keep relying on it, it just becomes unbelievable, and rightfully so

None of the suggestions I made rely on coincidence.

So I’ll go back to my original question… what’s the issue with the character knowing someone in a city? Like, logistically as you run the game… what problems does that create?

 

[Maxperson]

@prabe mentioned the idea of fate not as a specific explanation, but simply that such ideas will suit some settings more than others, and in such settings could therefore help explain coincidences and the like.

Fate gets old and completely unbelievable really quickly. It works once or maybe twice in a campaign, and not close together.

@prabe then mentioned the USPS to point out how, although we in the real world don't often actually personally know the people involved, we know the process and ways to engage with them to get things done. The idea here is that the criminal character knows about things like thieves' cant and graffiti or similar customs that can put him in touch with people who can deliver messages. The character knows how the underworld works and can use that knowledge. He doesn't need to always know someone specifically.

So almost no setting has some sort of universal process to get things done, not even in the underworld. What works for thieves in one city isn't going to be the same for a city 1000 miles away, 5000 miles away, or on another world. Also, criminals don't just go around helping one another out. They're CRIMINALS.

The above explanation might also work once or twice in a campaign. Keeping in mind that when I talk about a campaign, they go for longer than a year when I run and up into the high teens to 20th level. A campaign isn't short.

And here's the main thing... there doesn't need to be one explanation to explain how the character is well-connected. In one city... maybe one near the character's home town... he might know someone personally. But a city that's further away? Maybe his cousin once worked with a guy there, and they were close, so the character knows to seek that person out. In another city, maybe he knows how to signal that he's a freelancer in need of some local help, and then is contacted by a local guildmember. There can be all kinds of reasons.

Again, this kind of coincidence gets really unbelievable, really quickly. That kind of fiction ruining coincidence is enough to get me to leave a game.

There just isn't always going to be a coincidental solution.

I mean, if you put zero effort into this, then of course you'll be dissatisfied with the results.

I'm willing to wager that his dissatisfaction has nothing to do with the amount of effort involved.

 

[mamba]

So I’ll go back to my original question… what’s the issue with the character knowing someone in a city?

in one city, nothing, everywhere throughout the multiverse, plenty

Like, logistically as you run the game… what problems does that create?

unbelievability

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think you missed the actual points people were making.

@prabe mentioned the idea of fate not as a specific explanation, but simply that such ideas will suit some settings more than others, and in such settings could therefore help explain coincidences and the like.

@prabe then mentioned the USPS to point out how, although we in the real world don't often actually personally know the people involved, we know the process and ways to engage with them to get things done. The idea here is that the criminal character knows about things like thieves' cant and graffiti or similar customs that can put him in touch with people who can deliver messages. The character knows how the underworld works and can use that knowledge. He doesn't need to always know someone specifically.

And here's the main thing... there doesn't need to be one explanation to explain how the character is well-connected. In one city... maybe one near the character's home town... he might know someone personally. But a city that's further away? Maybe his cousin once worked with a guy there, and they were close, so the character knows to seek that person out. In another city, maybe he knows how to signal that he's a freelancer in need of some local help, and then is contacted by a local guildmember. There can be all kinds of reasons.

There doesn't need to be one single explanation. As I said, approach the idea with some sense of creativity... look at the relevant factors in each case and come up with something that makes sense.

I mean, if you put zero effort into this, then of course you'll be dissatisfied with the results.

The issue as I see it is that all that creativity you're suggesting comes with the restriction that it serve the principle that the mechanic in question must work as written; that is, that the fiction must bend to serve the mechanics. I find that principle uncomfortable personally, though I know others are fine with it.

 

[Aldarc]

unbelievability

There is not your singular standard of "unbelievability [sic]" as clearly other people here in this thread find this believable or plausible within the contexts of the game. And in some cases, cutting things that you deem "unbelievable" is precisely what will make the game world unbelievable for others.

If you think that this is unbelievable, I can't wait to tell you about all the other unbelievable things that you can find all over in your fantasy elf game.

 

[mamba]

There is not your singular standard of "unbelievability [sic]"

I know that, it creates unbeliavability for me, I could not care less whether it does for you. I answered what it does for me. I do not think I have to point out in every single post that I am talking for myself rather than everyone, you can take that as a given

It might come as a surprise, but how you feel about something has no relevance when it comes to how I feel about it. I would lose interest in such a game fast, even if you considered it the best thing since sliced bread

If you think that this is unbelievable, I can't wait to tell you about all the other unbelievable things that you can find all over in your fantasy elf game

could not care less, some things make sense in the context of the world, others do not. The argument that one thing in my elf game is impossible in our world means that every kind of nonsense should be fine does not work for me

 

[Retros_x]

But why bother? There are plenty of D&D-style games, even 5e-based ones, that are better at handling survival-based playstyles and higher general difficulty.

Because I or my players might like 5e? I played harder "gritty" 5e games. Its not that hard its just designing an adventure differently. But you have to design it anyway there is not a real higher workload in prepping. I agree that other games feel differently or naturally more hardcore, but I am annoyed by the notion that 5e forces you to play superhero style and if you try otherwise you have to modify the whole system. Thats just not true, based on my own experiences of someone who runs harder 5e games, where character death actually happens and not just super rare and resources matter.

That's a different topic from what was being discussed

I answered quite directly to one specific point you made.

The post you quoted was about how 5e very heavily stacks interconnected rules to strongly enforce or thwart styles of play other than the super hero to super hero+ playstyle it pushes.

But you yourself make this difference about superhero playstyle mainly over difficulty. You talk about trivializing difficulty. I disagree with you, based on my own experience, 5e doesn't push you to play a superhero game. Not via its systems. You just have to design the adventure accordingly (like you need to do anyway) and adjust difficulty accordingly. And you might use variant rules that are printed in the official product and are part of the system.

(btw the 5e getting-knocked-out, healing word-upped, knocked out again, waking up cycle is not something I saw in any superhero story)